Should point buy be discouraged?

[Hassassin]

I don't think you are giving inexperienced people very much credit. It is not that hard to read a paragraph on each type and go from there.

I'm probably generalizing my own opinions here, but I know whenever I start playing a new game - whether an RPG, a board game, a card game or a video game - the fewer choices I need to make before the game itself starts the better.

Sure, the new players will understand it if you add a few paragraphs of information, but will making that choice improve their first game in any way?

If not, make the choice for them and leave it to advanced players to change the default.

 

[billd91]

How is that any different than "You have to put your highest roll in your prime stat!"?

Substantially. You probably don't have an 18 to invest, for one thing. And you don't have to dump anything to get one. As a result, you tend to get characters better suited for adventuring alongside players who don't do much optimizing.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

I don't think point buy should be discouraged, as that approach will defeat the point of D&D next. Rather a series of equivalent systems will be offered with players picking the one they want. I'm happy to leave the details to the professionals and pay them for the job well done.

 

[Herschel]

Are you aware of what having a 15 in a stat got you over a 9? Because this is one of the major differences between pre-3e D&D and post-3e D&D.

Str: +20 Weight allowance, +80 Max press, +3 Open doors, +6% Bend bars/Lift gates
Con: +1 HP per level, +25% System shock, +24% Resurrection survival,
Dex: -1 Defense adjustment
Int: +2 Languages, +3 Max spell level(able to cast 7th level spells)*, +30% chance to learn spells*, +5 max spells known per level*
Wis: +1 Magic Defense, 2 1st and 1 2nd level bonus spells**, -20% chance of spell failure**
Cha: +3 Max # of Henchmen, +3 base Loyalty, +3 Reaction adjustment

*Magic-users only
**Priests only

And the line says 15 AND ABOVE. Sure, the scaling changed in 3E and continued in to 4E for bonuses at lower stats but (at least in 4E) they take that in to account and very rarely is it worth it to buy a pre-racial 18 in a stat. In fact it's usually detrimental to buy an 18 because you end up with two bad defenses, lousy riders and no feat prerequisites.

 

[Herschel]

Substantially. You probably don't have an 18 to invest, for one thing. And you don't have to dump anything to get one. As a result, you tend to get characters better suited for adventuring alongside players who don't do much optimizing.

You might have two dump stats or you might have two 18s with rolling, and with ye old standard array you have the same number of dump stats, and only at an 8, as someone using point buy. All the standard array does is says "I'm the DM, we're using point buy and this is how 'm telling you you alloted your points".

Also, by not using point buy you tend to restrict what characters get played because they want to have a good score in their primary but not suck elsewhere.

Take, for example, wanting to play a wizened fighter in light armor. You need strength, dexterity and wisdom. Simple enough archtype right? But wait, you want him to be an elf who gets bonuses to Wisdom and Dexterity. So point buy give you an option to buy that 18 and have 15s in Dex and Wisdom, or have 16s in each.

If not for point buy you can't even go the balanced route because your stat array is chosen for you or it's up to the fickleness of the dice gods if you can even play your character. And you probably won't play the race you want because you'll go to a +STR bonus race.

How is that any different? All large weapon melee Fighters are humans, dwarves or half-orcs is actually more restrictive.

 

[Herschel]

2. My problem with 4e points buy is it pretty much precludes a low attribute character - the fighter with 5 Int or Ranger with 5 Cha. These can be a fun/challenge to experience.

You can still do this, just ask the DM. The big difference is you aren't automatically stuck playing one if the dice fall a certain way. If you have a character you want to play and the dice don't favor you TBSS and the guy next to you who rolled well could be making you feel like a punk really easily.

All point buy does is lets you decide which character you want to play rather than having random dice rolls decide for you.

 

[billd91]

Also, by not using point buy you tend to restrict what characters get played because they want to have a good score in their primary but not suck elsewhere.

Take, for example, wanting to play a wizened fighter in light armor. You need strength, dexterity and wisdom. Simple enough archtype right? But wait, you want him to be an elf who gets bonuses to Wisdom and Dexterity. So point buy give you an option to buy that 18 and have 15s in Dex and Wisdom, or have 16s in each.

I've never seen it be a problem that combinations don't get played because we're rolling dice. You want a wise fighter in light armor? Put your top 3 rolled values in those spots. Apply your elven stat bonuses and you're done.

 

[MINI]

I think having options of both ways is best. There should also be a good table of score arrays with examples of who they could apply to as well as ones that are player appropriate vs ones that are poor or excellent scores only usable by the DM. These plethora of score arrays would make creating NPCs faster for the DM. The score arrays table could be an item that was placed in the DMG with a more limited version usable by the players put in the PHB.

 

[Elf Witch]

I'm probably generalizing my own opinions here, but I know whenever I start playing a new game - whether an RPG, a board game, a card game or a video game - the fewer choices I need to make before the game itself starts the better.

Sure, the new players will understand it if you add a few paragraphs of information, but will making that choice improve their first game in any way?

If not, make the choice for them and leave it to advanced players to change the default.

My experiences with some defaults have been very negative. A lot of players look at the default as the "best" way and most "balanced" way to do something after all it has to be the best because it is the default.

You end up getting these really rigid DMs. It is one thing if they come to different game sites but a lot don't there entire experience is from the books.

Which is why whenever it is absolutely not needed I wish the rules would stray away from a default as much as possible.

Give the DMs tools to really make the game support their idea of the type of game they want to run. I feel very strongly that different choices in how to generate stats is one of these areas.

The game has always supported different ways to do it. Way back in 1985 we had a DM come up with a stat array so that people didn't have to deal with the randomness of the dice.

So in the spirit of that I don't think a default is needed.

 

[SSquirrel]

In that case you should probably consider Int 5 to be IQ 75, as if 3d6 is taken to model the population, 5 or lower comes up about 5% of the time.

Well that's great for figuring out things on the 3-18 scale, but the game progresses much higher than that. If starting max is 20 and all boosts are put into Int, you can end up with a 29 by L30. Add whatever bump you gain from your epic tier bonus, and we're talking a range of up to 31. If an 18 then becomes equal to a 140 level IQ, where does a 23 stand? 30? There are extraordinarily few people who have a 160 or higher. Only a .5% of people are lower than 60 or higher than 140 put together. The highest verified is 210. Kim Ung-yong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's easy to imagine bigger and stronger, being able to grasp the super high intelligences gets crazy. Read the things that guy was doing at the different ages.