Should point buy be discouraged?

[dangerous jack]

My ideal world:
1. option for rolling 3d6
2. point buy that would generate approximately the same stats as rolling 3d6
3. option for rolling 4d6
4. different point buy system that would generate approximately the same stats as rolling 4d6

In other words, I could have characters roll 4d6 and characters that use point buy at the same table.

This would likely discourage having every character at the table with an 18 unless they were all prepared to balance it out with some low score. It would involve someone that knows some tricky math to work the 2 systems out, but I have no doubt it could be done.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Sometimes I wonder what would happen if I just let my players pick their stats (3-18).

GM: "What do you want to play?"
Player: "Someone along the lines of Conan."
GM: "Okay, assign whatever you want to your stats."
Player: "Well, he has a great Strength and Dexterity. His Constitution should be pretty good, too. He was pretty intelligent, and probably decently wise. Very charismatic. So... 17, 17, 15, 16, 14, and 17."
GM: "Cool. Have fun."

Would this be fun? I feel like it might be, but it might not be. I could see it go either way, honestly. The thing I like about rolling is that this type of character is possible, but very unlikely (like he should be in the game world, probably). I usually see point-buy for stats as too "damage-controlled above-average" for my tastes. Then again, I offer an array (assign 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, and 11, assigned however you want).

I'm not sure how the next edition should do it, but it should have options for rolling, arrays, and point-buy. I prefer rolling because it opens up more possibilities than either arrays or point-buy for stats do. Then again, saying "pick what you like" opens up even more options, which I guess is why it tempts me...

At any rate, the more narrative options in the game, the better. I say this as someone who greatly prefers simulation mechanics in my fantasy games, too. That is, my RPG includes many things that will open up narrative avenues, such as a d% Hit Chart for hit effects, the possibility of falling unconscious in combat without running out of HP, or the possibility of staying awake when in the negatives and dying.

So, ideally for me, give me something that gives me options. I find that the rolling method opens up more options for me than the other two methods, and thus it has my preference. However, all three (array, rolling, point-buy) should be included, no matter what the default is.

Just my thoughts. Whatever they choose might mildly annoy me, but I'm so used to ignoring what I don't like that it won't be a big deal to me. They just need to remember that presentation is key, and do their best not to alienate too many people. I'd go for a single array, personally, but stress that the others are just as valid, and people like certain methods more than others (so try them, too!). As always, play what you like

 

[Elf Witch]

Sometimes I wonder what would happen if I just let my players pick their stats (3-18).

GM: "What do you want to play?"
Player: "Someone along the lines of Conan."
GM: "Okay, assign whatever you want to your stats."
Player: "Well, he has a great Strength and Dexterity. His Constitution should be pretty good, too. He was pretty intelligent, and probably decently wise. Very charismatic. So... 17, 17, 15, 16, 14, and 17."
GM: "Cool. Have fun."

Would this be fun? I feel like it might be, but it might not be. I could see it go either way, honestly. The thing I like about rolling is that this type of character is possible, but very unlikely (like he should be in the game world, probably). I usually see point-buy for stats as too "damage-controlled above-average" for my tastes. Then again, I offer an array (assign 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, and 11, assigned however you want).

I'm not sure how the next edition should do it, but it should have options for rolling, arrays, and point-buy. I prefer rolling because it opens up more possibilities than either arrays or point-buy for stats do. Then again, saying "pick what you like" opens up even more options, which I guess is why it tempts me...

At any rate, the more narrative options in the game, the better. I say this as someone who greatly prefers simulation mechanics in my fantasy games, too. That is, my RPG includes many things that will open up narrative avenues, such as a d% Hit Chart for hit effects, the possibility of falling unconscious in combat without running out of HP, or the possibility of staying awake when in the negatives and dying.

So, ideally for me, give me something that gives me options. I find that the rolling method opens up more options for me than the other two methods, and thus it has my preference. However, all three (array, rolling, point-buy) should be included, no matter what the default is.

Just my thoughts. Whatever they choose might mildly annoy me, but I'm so used to ignoring what I don't like that it won't be a big deal to me. They just need to remember that presentation is key, and do their best not to alienate too many people. I'd go for a single array, personally, but stress that the others are just as valid, and people like certain methods more than others (so try them, too!). As always, play what you like

You summed up the reason I like rolling. In my experience usually rolled stats are usually not that much different then the stats generated by doing a 32 point buy.

Characters like Conan, King Arthur, Aragorn should be rare in the world but there should be a possibility of one.

A lot depends on the group if you have a group who is obsessed with fairness and if someone has better stats feels that the game is less fun then rolling stats can be a major issue.

I am lucky the groups I play with this has never been an issue for the most part the role playing aspect of a character is more important then how much damage you do in combat. As long as you get a chance to contribute to the game and you are having fun with your character that is all that matters.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

My ideal world:
1. option for rolling 3d6
2. point buy that would generate approximately the same stats as rolling 3d6
3. option for rolling 4d6
4. different point buy system that would generate approximately the same stats as rolling 4d6

In other words, I could have characters roll 4d6 and characters that use point buy at the same table.

This would likely discourage having every character at the table with an 18 unless they were all prepared to balance it out with some low score. It would involve someone that knows some tricky math to work the 2 systems out, but I have no doubt it could be done.

I agree with this approach. I would like to have 3 different players be able to choose to roll, use point buy, and use an array, and all 3 be in the same ball park.

Prior to this, the DM led group would have decided on the power level of the campaign, which would have equally toggled each method up or down.

A fair bit of maths but one of the easier tasks for a pro designer.

 

[Herschel]

This would likely discourage having every character at the table with an 18 unless they were all prepared to balance it out with some low score. It would involve someone that knows some tricky math to work the 2 systems out, but I have no doubt it could be done.

Have you ever done point buy? I ask because in standard point buy getting an 18 is usually ridiculously expensive and you have to balance it out with pretty low scores in that your next highest score is generally a 13 and to get another 13 you have to have one stat be an 8. And that's just within the normal scope, you can always adjust lower if you want/DM permission if you want to bottom-out a stat.

 

[dangerous jack]

Have you ever done point buy? I ask because in standard point buy getting an 18 is usually ridiculously expensive and you have to balance it out with pretty low scores in that your next highest score is generally a 13 and to get another 13 you have to have one stat be an 8. And that's just within the normal scope, you can always adjust lower if you want/DM permission if you want to bottom-out a stat.

I think our definition of "pretty low scores" is different. Statistically if you had an 18 in one stat, you should probably be balancing that out by having a 3 (given 3d6 origins of the game... 4d6 might allow you to balance it with a 5, but I don't know the math).

And I've done plenty of point buy in 2e and later, and it wasn't until 4e that I saw every player have an 18 (and most have a 20) in their prime stat. When I played in an encounters game recently without a 16 intelligence for my dragonborn wizard, the reaction to my 13 AC was "where's the rest of it?"

 

[Herschel]

I think our definition of "pretty low scores" is different. Statistically if you had an 18 in one stat, you should probably be balancing that out by having a 3 (given 3d6 origins of the game... 4d6 might allow you to balance it with a 5, but I don't know the math).

And I've done plenty of point buy in 2e and later, and it wasn't until 4e that I saw every player have an 18 (and most have a 20) in their prime stat. When I played in an encounters game recently without a 16 intelligence for my dragonborn wizard, the reaction to my 13 AC was "where's the rest of it?"

Buying a pre-racial 18 in 4th? That's generally a bad idea if you want to have any sort of lasting character. I suppose for Encounters if they don't plan on porting the character to LFR afterwards it's okay but it's still leaving you with at least two really squishy defenses.

Not having at least a 16 post-racial in INT is also not adviseable, never was (refer to Gygax bit). It's also pretty easy to get a 16 in a prime stat and not doing so is really just a form of martyr syndrome and not a good idea in an open game.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The game needs to be written, that it will work with random stats, 22 point buy, 32 point buy and 7 point buy. It should work with good and bad characters... hopefully even when you put them in the same adventuring group...
this would mean, that stats have a slightly lower effect on attack and defenses than in 3rd or 4th edition.