Should the DMG be the cheapest core book?

[The Little Raven]

But that avoids the point of whose DMing. Sure, you got five players and 0 DMs. What good are those Player's Handbooks now?

What good are those DMGs if there's no DMs? Hint: Not much good at all. No book is useful when a group doesn't have a DM, and having the DMG be cheaper doesn't just create new DMs like you seem to think.

And it still doesn't address a basic point in my post: 5 PHBs is useful in a group, but 5 DMGs is unnecessary. A group just needs 1 DMG for use by the current DM, while it's best for everyone to have their own PHB.

It's still the most prep time role in the group and giving extra costs to that individual seems counter intuititve no?

No. Giving a greater cost to the largest percentage of the population (players) is counter-intuitive. Having the base rule book more expensive than a DM's advice and tool guide means less people will get into your game initially (since mostly everyone makes the step from non-gamer to player to DM). You price the entry product (the PHB, which has all the rules needed to play the game) the lowest to make it more appealing to get into it.

 

[BASHMAN]

You are incorrect. It's over 9000

LOL! Seriously, I think that the books are $34.95 b/c of some discount by buying it online. I think the sicker price will be like $39.95... which I just shortcut to $40.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

But that avoids the point of whose DMing. Sure, you got five players and 0 DMs. What good are those Player's Handbooks now?

It's still the most prep time role in the group and giving extra costs to that individual seems counter intuititve no?

For some people, being the DM is very rewarding. The extra work means actually "more time for your favourite hobby".

But a group could always to decide to buy the book for itself, and the guy DMing just has it the most time.

But honestly, I never entirely understood how new groups form for D&D. You need 3 books for it! If it's the first time you wanted to roleplay, that's a huge buy-in for which you don't know wether it will appeal to you at all!

Personally, I got into D&D due to a new group I was joining. Before that, I played shadowrun (_one_ core rulebook), and as a new player, I could borrow a book or get copied pages or something like that to get some familiarity (not that really worked) and create my first character.

My first D&D character was created with the old e-tools. Over time, I bought all the core books, and eventually expanded into other supplements. Today, I am a roleplayer - I know the buy-in can be worth it - even if I never actually use the stuff I bought. ("Testament Roleplaying in the Biblical Era" or "Monte Cooks World of Darkness" for example - nice read, never had time to implement a campaign for it, between Dragonstar, Arcana Evolved, D&D and Iron Heroes... - and off course all the campaigns my fellow gamers run).

But without other experienced players or own experience - I have a hard time seeing someone buying the 3 core books. Maybe that's why the introduction adventure with sample characters is so important. And word of mouth...

 

[The Little Raven]

LOL! Seriously, I think that the books are $34.95 b/c of some discount by buying it online.

Wizards, which always lists the sticker MSRP, is $34.95.

 

[JoeGKushner]

What good are those DMGs if there's no DMs? Hint: Not much good at all. No book is useful when a group doesn't have a DM, and having the DMG be cheaper doesn't just create new DMs like you seem to think.

No, but it lowers the barrier of cost. Critical for new players. I mean, 4e isn't just going for previous players is it? D&D is still one of the few books where 3 core books is the norm. (Not the only one mind you as even thought everything is "core" in Warhammer the Old World Bestiary is still almost mandatory and let's not get into Rolemaster.)

And it still doesn't address a basic point in my post: 5 PHBs is useful in a group, but 5 DMGs is unnecessary. A group just needs 1 DMG for use by the current DM, while it's best for everyone to have their own PHB.

Sure, 5 PHBs is useful. And yes, 5 DMGs is unnecessary unless everyone is DMing. However, it STILL doesn't address the point of putting more burden on the DM. Especially a DM whose new to roleplaying.

No. Giving a greater cost to the largest percentage of the population (players) is counter-intuitive.

But since the PHB is almost a 100 pages longer, it's not really a greater cost. It's especially not a greater cost since they don't have to, you know buy the DMG and the PHB.

Having the base rule book more expensive than a DM's advice and tool guide means less people will get into your game initially (since mostly everyone makes the step from non-gamer to player to DM). You price the entry product (the PHB, which has all the rules needed to play the game) the lowest to make it more appealing to get into it.

That's a good point. But gets back to putting the burdens on new GMs. Especially given the discrepant page counts with no variant in price. My opinion is that WoTC is dropping the ball on this.

Either beef up the page count or drop the price.

 

[The Little Raven]

No, but it lowers the barrier of cost. Critical for new players. I mean, 4e isn't just going for previous players is it? D&D is still one of the few books where 3 core books is the norm. (Not the only one mind you as even thought everything is "core" in Warhammer the Old World Bestiary is still almost mandatory and let's not get into Rolemaster.)

New players do not automatically mean new DMs. New players is absolutely key, as is lowering barriers of entry to those players (which is why I love the "loln00b" focus in the first core books), but that's more a matter of getting them into the game itself, rather than getting them to make the transition from player to DM.

And sure, getting the 3 core books is the norm... for established players, or those truly interested in DMing. My group will continue it's traditional of all PHBs, and only half MMs/DMGs, since only half of us really DM (and anyone else can borrow those books).

Sure, 5 PHBs is useful. And yes, 5 DMGs is unnecessary unless everyone is DMing. However, it STILL doesn't address the point of putting more burden on the DM. Especially a DM whose new to roleplaying.

He still needs a PHB in addition to a DMG, so having the DMG cheap, but the PHB more expensive doesn't really help him become a DM, since he'll be spending the same amount of money, just divided slightly differently. I'd rather the big, whopping 320-page PHB be cheaper, since that's a better deal/more likely to draw in new people.

But since the PHB is almost a 100 pages longer, it's not really a greater cost. It's especially not a greater cost since they don't have to, you know buy the DMG and the PHB.

The reason the PHB is 100 pages longer, but cheaper, is because of print-runs. There is no book in any RPG in the industry that has a larger print-run than the D&D PHB. The only way the DMG could get cheaper in that regard is by selling as many copies as the PHB, which it will never do. Instead of focusing on theoretical sales, they're focusing on what precedent has shown them.

That's a good point. But gets back to putting the burdens on new GMs. Especially given the discrepant page counts with no variant in price. My opinion is that WoTC is dropping the ball on this.

The burden is always on a DM, because they've chosen to take that burden on.

Either beef up the page count or drop the price.

Beefing up the page count won't make people more inspired to become DMs, and dropping the price without guaranteeing larger print runs (and thus sales) will reduce WotC's profit margins (especially since it seems they're making the core books $5 cheaper than standard 4e hardcovers).

 

[JoeGKushner]

He still needs a PHB in addition to a DMG, so having the DMG cheap, but the PHB more expensive doesn't really help him become a DM, since he'll be spending the same amount of money, just divided slightly differently.

Uh. No.

If the PHB is $34.95 and the DMG is $29.99, he'll be spending less money.

I'm not saying RAISE the cost of the PHB or the MM.

The reason the PHB is 100 pages longer, but cheaper, is because of print-runs. There is no book in any RPG in the industry that has a larger print-run than the D&D PHB. The only way the DMG could get cheaper in that regard is by selling as many copies as the PHB, which it will never do. Instead of focusing on theoretical sales, they're focusing on what precedent has shown them.

And yet they've done it before. Recently.

Beefing up the page count won't make people more inspired to become DMs, and dropping the price without guaranteeing larger print runs (and thus sales) will reduce WotC's profit margins (especially since it seems they're making the core books $5 cheaper than standard 4e hardcovers).

How do you know that having a better value for the DMG won't inspire more people to pick it up? And how do you know that making it cheaper won't make it more appealing?

 

[The Little Raven]

And yet they've done it before. Recently.

They put out the DMG cheaper than the PHB, recently? Got a source for that claim?

How do you know that having a better value for the DMG won't inspire more people to pick it up? And how do you know that making it cheaper won't make it more appealing?

Making anything cheaper makes it more appealing. Hell, giving it away free would make it 100% more appealing, but that doesn't mean it's good business for Wizards. You seem wholly focused on "GIVE CUSTOMERS STUFF" and less on Wizard's desire to make a profit so they can expand their business.

To reduce their own costs, they'd have larger print-runs of the DMG, which would require more people to buy it for them to make up the loss of profit through volume. Now, unless they have compelling evidence that will work, it's not a business-savvy approach to lay out more up-front costs in the hope that precedent will be proven wrong.

 

[JoeGKushner]

They put out the DMG cheaper than the PHB, recently? Got a source for that claim?

I was refering to this part, "The reason the PHB is 100 pages longer, but cheaper..."

I assumed you meant not "cheaper" but equal price. The last 3.5 books were all the same page length and were equal price.

Making anything cheaper makes it more appealing. Hell, giving it away free would make it 100% more appealing, but that doesn't mean it's good business for Wizards. You seem wholly focused on "GIVE CUSTOMERS STUFF" and less on Wizard's desire to make a profit so they can expand their business.

And yet retention has to be part of their business plan or they'd just do new editions and new revised printings every time they went to press no? If there are no DMs... once again, no game.

To reduce their own costs, they'd have larger print-runs of the DMG, which would require more people to buy it for them to make up the loss of profit through volume. Now, unless they have compelling evidence that will work, it's not a business-savvy approach to lay out more up-front costs in the hope that precedent will be proven wrong.

Depends on how much profit we're talking. Are they making razor thin margins on their books? Neither you or I know so it may be a case of taking less profit now for greater profit on the spats latter. This doesn't deal with overall things WoTC can do like printing in China, cheaper PDF's, etc...

 

[Pierson_Lowgal]

Joe, I think the player's handbook should be more expensive than the monster manual and the DMG, which should cost the same.

For gamers who will buy all three, the total price is all that matters to Hasbro. The second group is people who plan only to be players, and not to DM, who only buy the PHB. Once they've bought that, you encourage them to buy the DMG and MM, at a later date, by setting a lower price. I'm nearly certain that other games that have a main book and then a subsequent referee-tool book, keep the referee-only book at a lower price.