D&D 5E Should the next edition of D&D promote more equality?

[Dausuul]

It's about time for it to come to a close, in my opinion. EN World can't really sustain long conversations on anything gender-related. Which is a shame, because it handles everything else so well. As always, play what you like

On the contrary, between some judicious mod interventions and the courtesy of the forum community, I think ENWorld is handling this discussion admirably. I've seen what this sort of debate looks like on other sites and it ain't pretty. While things have certainly gotten heated, we're at 58 pages and it hasn't degenerated into all-out flame war.

I do think most of the things that can be said on this topic have now been said, but the thread will eventually come to a close on its own.

Keep politic correctnesss out of it; for the game to continue to stand the test of time it must continually keep its nose out of issues like this.

Race is a fantasy concept in D&D in that the races are fantasy ones; whilever they stay this way and do not attempt to represent reality then the more resilient D&D is and the harder it is for idiots to turn it into a political football.

On the day that D&D abolishes humans as a PC race (not to mention the other races that amount to humans-in-funny-suits), it will be possible for the game to "keep its nose out of issues like this." Until then, the Wizards art department is going to have to decide what color to paint people's skin and how female characters will be dressed. Deciding that most of the art will portray white people, and most of the women will be shown in stripperiffic outfits, is a choice, every bit as much as deciding that the art will show a variety of ethnicities and both men and women will be dressed sensibly for what they're doing. There is no "default setting" for this stuff.

 

[kingius]

Deciding that most of the art will portray white people, and most of the women will be shown in stripperiffic outfits, is a choice, every bit as much as deciding that the art will show a variety of ethnicities and both men and women will be dressed sensibly for what they're doing.

That's a decision for the artists to make not for men in suits to impose their vision of the world onto them and through them onto the rest of us. D&D is fantasy and as such it's not supposed to represent our world at all. You've got to be able to tell the difference between fantasy and reality, a photo and a painting, real life and a game.

What you are talking about is that there should be an agenda from the top to force art to depict a variety of races. Once you get into agendas you are into highly political territory. Keep the agendas out of D&D. D&D is not a vehicle for politics, agendas, racism, sexism or any other issue that politicians bandy about to get votes on. D&D is a game that sits outside of all that that people can escape into. That's the point of it.

Edit - If Wizards try to 'white wash' political issues into D&D through its artwork then D&D Next is going to be a form of propaganda. Ask yourself - is this what you want?

 

[Morrus]

Just a quick note. We're not presently considering closing this thread. Speaking personally, while I strongly disagree with some of the things said in this thread - I come down firmly on the 'sexism is a problem and the art is a part of that; and while women gamers are on the rise, it's not happening nearly fast enough - and it's the rest of us who can decide to act in ways that make women feel welcome' side of the debate - it has been *mainly* conducted civilly. Because this is an issue that we feel is important, that should have visibility, and because positions are being politely challenged, this thread remains valuable.

I would encourage more women and other demographics to participate in the thread; it's all very well a crowd of middle-aged white guys preaching about sexism, but that's the demographic that probably is the furthest from experiencing casual discrimination or objectification.

As always, if individual posts are problematic, please report them. But for now we'll be letting the discussion continue on the grounds that it's a valuable discussion.

As a side note, we asked a lot of people this very question while at UKGE last weekend. We'll be producing a video featurette which deals with the topic of sexism in gaming, and we have lots of people of all types offering their thoughts on camera. It should prove a fascinating piece.

 

[Morrus]

That's a decision for the artists to make not for men in suits to impose their vision of the world onto them and through them onto the rest of us. D&D is fantasy and as such it's not supposed to represent our world at all. You've got to be able to tell the difference between fantasy and reality, a photo and a painting, real life and a game.

What you are talking about is that there should be an agenda from the top to force art to depict a variety of races. Once you get into agendas you are into highly political territory. Keep the agendas out of D&D. D&D is not a vehicle for politics, agendas, racism, sexism or any other issue that politicians bandy about to get votes on. D&D is a game that sits outside of all that that people can escape into. That's the point of it.

Edit - If Wizards try to 'white wash' political issues into D&D through its artwork then D&D Next is going to be a form of propaganda. Ask yourself - is this what you want?

Not making women feel uncomfortable is not political propaganda. It's common decency. Until folks understand this, the problem will never go away, and women will continue to be pushed away.

 

[billd91]

Keep politic correctnesss out of it; for the game to continue to stand the test of time it must continually keep its nose out of issues like this.

Race is a fantasy concept in D&D in that the races are fantasy ones; whilever they stay this way and do not attempt to represent reality then the more resilient D&D is and the harder it is for idiots to turn it into a political football.

There's a problem with this analysis. Race and sex are very much politicized topics in the societies where D&D is hoping to thrive. D&D's representation can try to make a positive contribution by making itself friendly to potential buyers of all groups rather than exclude by either design (a really bad move) or by oversight. Trying to stake out a neutral ground in this area really is a stand in support of the status quo, of committing exclusion by oversight with respect to most non-white racial groups/non-north western European ethnic groups.

Is including a better balance of racial/ethnic groups going to alienate white buyers? I doubt it. Is replacing most pandering cheesecake with more sensibly dressed and posed females going to alienate male buyers? Again, I doubt it. But is lack of positive models for non-white or female gamers going to alienate them? I think evidence shows it does. So what is a game company to do? They may get a bump in sales with the pandering images (hey, I like being pandered to, I like fan service) but is it enough to counteract actually pushing potential buyers away? I don't think so.

 

[billd91]

Edit - If Wizards try to 'white wash' political issues into D&D through its artwork then D&D Next is going to be a form of propaganda. Ask yourself - is this what you want?

Interesting and utterly mistaken use of the term whitewash, because that's exactly what not engaging in the issue or trying to play neutral actually does. It glosses over, covers up, papers over the real issues at hand.

 

[Obryn]

That's a decision for the artists to make not for men in suits to impose their vision of the world onto them and through them onto the rest of us. D&D is fantasy and as such it's not supposed to represent our world at all. You've got to be able to tell the difference between fantasy and reality, a photo and a painting, real life and a game.

What you are talking about is that there should be an agenda from the top to force art to depict a variety of races. Once you get into agendas you are into highly political territory. Keep the agendas out of D&D. D&D is not a vehicle for politics, agendas, racism, sexism or any other issue that politicians bandy about to get votes on. D&D is a game that sits outside of all that that people can escape into. That's the point of it.

Edit - If Wizards try to 'white wash' political issues into D&D through its artwork then D&D Next is going to be a form of propaganda. Ask yourself - is this what you want?

You know what's funny? By encouraging diversity in the art and text, I think we're trying to keep agendas out of the game and let everyone escape into it.

"Escaping" to me doesn't mean, "for the next few hours, I'm going to pretend the world is full of white guys, women are there to be rescued and/or ogled, and everyone of significance is a straight dude."

-O

 

[MoonSong]

That's a decision for the artists to make not for men in suits to impose their vision of the world onto them and through them onto the rest of us. D&D is fantasy and as such it's not supposed to represent our world at all. You've got to be able to tell the difference between fantasy and reality, a photo and a painting, real life and a game.

Nop, that is a decision which the art director in concert with brand manager and marketing department make, (and that is assuming there isn't major involvement from higher ups), but the actual illustrators (because that is what they are) have no say on it, all they do is receive a design brief with heavy input from the art director, they don't decide what they are depicting, only how they do. They don't get to decide most of the content, rather how to best implement that content. (And of course they put thier pictorial abilities to the table)

 

[kingius]

Not making women feel uncomfortable is not political propaganda. It's common decency. Until folks understand this, the problem will never go away, and women will continue to be pushed away.

The remaking of a game's artwork in order to fufil an ideal about the way society should be perceived really is political propaganda. How women feel about D&D is not encapsulated into its artwork at all; making women feel comfortable is the job of the DM and the players and (to some extent) the rule book, but let us not forget, women already feel comfortable with D&D, as do players of all races, because D&D is not in anyway sexist or racist. Old school artwork which showed women as 'sex objects' has already been pruged from D&D. What's being discussed here is the removal of white folk from artwork in line with a misperception that somehow not seeing a black dwarf is putting people of other races off playing. Obviously, this is nonsense.

I used to work in eLearning and the amount of political correct boxes that have to be ticked to deliver a project in this sector, for government clients, is very very high (as you might expect). But there we are dealing with photography and representing the demographic of the real user base. Here, with D&D, we are not representing real elves or real dwarves or real halflings or real humans. It's nothing like it. 'Bringing D&D into line' with liberal values is a purely political motivation dressed up as addressing a wrong; a wrong that doesn't actually exist. No chinese person is complaining that they see western characters in a western RPG.

It's time to tell the truth; there is an agenda at play that wants to reinvent ALL MEDIA to be culturally diverse. That in itself is not a bad thing. It just does not know it's limits, it's too stupid to understand that fantasy is not reality... and so it is playing out in D&D now. And it's probably unstoppable.

 

[kingius]

Reading some of the people quoting me on here does reinforce that a logical arguement is not going to work. If wizards want to enforce a lack of white folk in their artwork to try and fix a problem that doesn't exist, in line with a liberal political agenda of promoting cultural diversity across all mediums, well it won't be the existing fans that really have a say in it. It's going to happen just the same as government forces it to happen in all government documenation and resources. Fantasy, fans and logic be damned.