Should this have been a TPK?

[MerricB]

Hi MerricB,

By the way, I'm from Sydney so hello to you up the coast there.

G'day, Herremann!

There were a couple of additional issues that stopped the party from running. Of the three characters left standing after the initial foray, one was a LG Cleric of Tyr renowned for hating Orcs and a Half-Orc who loves him mum - and thus not Orcs. These guys did not even flinch before charging in.

Ah... hoist by your own characters.

She was an arrogant bitch and so won't be remembered fondly.

Sounds familiar to a PC in my campaign.

Her heroism (and death wish) is similar to a PC I occasionally play. It's not exactly smart, but it's enjoyable to play.

However, I feel that the major issue here was that the encounter was too tough.

Indeed - and I quite agree. Playing stupidly heroic characters didn't help, but you were unfairly doomed from the start. (I still think your Wizard could have gotten away, thanks to your expeditious retreat spell... it's called that for a reason, perhaps? )

One of the real tricks in playing with a Killer DM is to recognise what they are. Then, whenever things look slightly bad, assume they're really bad and run for it. Safer that way.

How long have you been playing with that DM?

Cheers!

 

[mmu1]

I think I'll go against the consensus here.

Luck had nothing to do with it - you had no chance whatsoever of winning the encounter, even with horrible losses. You might have had a chance of getting away alive, but even that was highly unlikely.

Your front line was completely outclassed. There were more of them, they probably had a better chance to hit, did a lot more damage, and had (especially while raging) probably twice the HP of your fighter, never mind the ranger and monk.

Which means it was down to the spellcasters to swing things your way - and and with only 2nd level spells available, that wasn't going to happen.

The only spells your Cleric could have had that'd have been some good were Cause Fear and Hold Person - and since they both only last for a very short time and affect one creature, they were of almost no use - leaving the wizard. (If you just wanted to prolong the agony, and the orcs were kind enough to get into a 20' radius, Calm Emotions could have been helpful too, I guess.)

The most useful spell a 3rd level wizard could have cast on them was Web - unfortunately, you were outdoors, making anchoring it potentially a problem. Even if it worked, with their excellent STR checks, they'd have had no trouble breaking free - but it could have bought you time to run. Color Spray could have stunned them for one freakin' round. Glitterdust only lasts 3 rounds - not enough to kill more then one of them even if they were all blinded and every PC could attack the same one instead of trying to stay alive.

In other words, you were robbed. Your DM doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hello Again MerricB,

I've been playing with the DM for 5 years and have DMed him myself in two campaigns. However, his main background is AD&D and while he has played a lot of 3rd Ed., he has not DMed a lot of it so he might have gotten a little confused with the EL's - could happen to anyone. Funnily enough, he is not normally a killer DM so it is not so much this as a plain mistake. The fact that we had defeated a Dire Bear in the previous session may have given him false confidence in our abilities.

Anyway, you live and learn. It's just a shame because I liked playing a Sun Elf Wizardess who saw most of the other characters as leaves in the wind of time. I most likely played her incorrectly in not getting her to run away. However, she is somewhat feisty and "expected" the Orcs to be devestated by her magic. Unfortunately, you get a rude shock when you expect your magic to blind and stun for a period rather than just momentarily distract.
I think it surprised everyone else too.

Anyway, all fun and looking forward to playing Sir Barden Pavanne, Paladin of Lathander in the next game. Sometimes it is fun to create new characters.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Silveras]

OK, so he's +1 for being a 5th level barbarian, +2 for raging, and -2 for being an orc (or does the initial orc save modifier not get taken into account? Under orc it lists: Saves: Fort +3, Ref +0, Will –2) So he's rolling at a +1. That's not that good of a modifier really. Even at +3 if the orc doesn't taken account, you're saving vs a probably DC16 (I would assume with an array like that the cleric would put the 18 in wis, though, it might be DC15). At best the orc has a 55% chance of being affected; at worst he has a 70% chance of being affected.

Chances are that one hold person, if not both, are going to land.

Uhm.. those are not additional modifiers. Those are the totals for a 1st level Warrior with the listed stats.

These were 5th level Barbarians with high stats. Their Will saves were probably +3 or better (+1 for Barbarian 5, +0 or better for Will of 10 or so, +2 for raging. Herremann the Wise indicated they had stats similar to the PCs, so the lowest was probably 10, and maybe not in Wisdom. Realistically, +5 is about what I would expect their Will saves to be in a rage.

 

[MerricB]

I've been playing with the DM for 5 years and have DMed him myself in two campaigns. However, his main background is AD&D and while he has played a lot of 3rd Ed., he has not DMed a lot of it so he might have gotten a little confused with the EL's - could happen to anyone.

Indeed.

Funnily enough, he is not normally a killer DM so it is not so much this as a plain mistake. The fact that we had defeated a Dire Bear in the previous session may have given him false confidence in our abilities.

Yes. I've recently been taking a break from (Killer) DMing (so in 200+ sessions of D&D 3E, I've now been a player in just 8 sessions!)

The player who took over for the past 4 sessions was introduced to D&D by myself when 3E first came out, so he's had a lot of experience as a player. He's actually a pretty good DM, except in the "appropriate challenges" box.

We haven't died - yet - but it's been pretty close. Our 2nd level party has been up against EL 4+ encounters... not easy. Even with Action Points.

Anyway, you live and learn. It's just a shame because I liked playing a Sun Elf Wizardess who saw most of the other characters as leaves in the wind of time.

Now, that's a really good line! "Leaves in the wind of time." I must use it for an elf NPC at one stage.

And "Live and Learn"? Not for your last batch of PCs, surely?

I most likely played her incorrectly in not getting her to run away. However, she is somewhat feisty and "expected" the Orcs to be devestated by her magic. Unfortunately, you get a rude shock when you expect your magic to blind and stun for a period rather than just momentarily distract.
I think it surprised everyone else too.

Yes, when the DM's dice hate you, they really hate you.

I think my players are spoilt by the number of ones I roll for the monsters' initiative!

I just wish my replacement had the same problem...

Anyway, all fun and looking forward to playing Sir Barden Pavanne, Paladin of Lathander in the next game. Sometimes it is fun to create new characters.

Good luck and...

Cheers!

 

[Celtavian]

re

The encounter was too tough. Your party would have needed some fairly good luck to beat it. They were higher level than you and had nearly equal numbers. When it comes to melee, strength and constitution are about all you need, especially for random encounters like this one. Sounds like the orcs had plenty of both. They were wielding 2-handed weapons as well giving them a +7 damage bonus, +10 when raging. Not good. A 3rd level melee can't take more than two or three hits from such attacks without being knocked unconcious. That is an average of 16 points a ht when raged, and 13 points a hit normally.

You were way outclassed. The DM underestimated the encounter.

 

[Agemegos]

The bottomline is the Monk never should have left the main group. There's a reason for scouting ahead and it isn't to ultimately doom the party, but to increase the party's chances of living.

No. The bottom line is that that was an encounter so tough that that party would almost certainly be defeated if they fought, and that the GM ought to have realised was likely to kill at least a couple of characters.

 

[Nasma]

They couldn't have even run away, the orcs would have a higher movement rate.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

As others have said, that encounter was almost certain to defeat the party.

Your party is about equivalent to an ordinary party of level 4.5 or so. 3 +1 for excellent stats and +.5 for a 5th character. You might add another .5 for high price equipment though something like a keen greatsword but I wouldn't (the +1 keen greatsword is ordinarily worth more than the DMG starting 3rd level value of all the characters put together is, practically, only slightly better than a +1 or even a masterwork greatsword in this situation (it most likely only boosts your average damage per round by one or two points). Furthermore, it's important to consider that, while high stats make characters as effective offensively as significantly higher level foes, they don't give them the same staying power. A third level fighter with an 18 strength, hits as hard as a 4th level fighter with a 16 strength but has significantly fewer hit points. So, high-stat parties tend to be effected more by turns in the dice because they're capable of dishing out the damage to take down higher level foes but not capable of taking the damage dealt by higher level foes.

As others have said, each individual orc was an EL 5 encounter and together they were a EL 9. So, at best the DM should have expected to kill several characters with a TPK a definite possiblilty. In fact, it probably still would have been a definite possiblity had you been 4th or 5th level. At 6th level, it still would be a challenging fight.

Orcs are also undervalued in terms of their LA--at least for fighter and barbarian types. Starting with the elite array, +4 strength orcs end up with a 20 strength at 4th level and above (15 base+4 racial+1 at 4th level=20). I don't know what "good equipment" means but it wouldn't take much to sway their effective level. Giving them high crit multiplier weapons like greataxes makes it even easier for a single lucky blow to sway the course of the battle.

Setting the orcs up to ambush the PCs increases the EL of the encounter by 1. The orcs could expect to kill a few sixth level characters if they got an ambush in. A TPK would be a possibility.

Despite what others have said, I don't think your party was poorly prepared for the encounter. Glitterdust and Color Spray are the kind of spells you'd want to have against such foes. Web and anchor points to use it would have been even better. Obscuring Mist or Fog Cloud would have then helped you escape (after you blinded some orcs). However, there was almost no way you would have been able to win without splitting the orcs up using high level scrolls (cloudkill, solid fog, Evard's Black Tentacles, etc), or gaining some kind of dramatic terrain advantage (a wall or steep slope lined with caltrops for instance).

 

[Epametheus]

Herremann, could you explain how the heck your party of 3rd level characters beat a dire bear? Especially if that somehow involved besting it in melee combat, which should've been completely impossible?

I wouldn't expect a 5th level party to lose to a 3rd level party. I wouldn't expect the 3rd level party to somehow defeat the 5th level party, either. Is the DM fairly inexperienced?