Should this have been a TPK?

This sounds a bit like a case of a frustrated DM who didn't know how to challenge your overpowered party (you had no trouble handling every other encounter he threw at you in the past, right?) and went overboard.

The encounter was too tough, at any rate. Two 5th level orc barbs (EL7) would have been a more appropriate challenge, possibly resulting in the death of one party member.

BTW, a single calm emotions cast by the cleric would have greatly reduced the difficulty of this encounter.
 

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Of all the replies in this thread, this one struck me the most:
I think a special "Darwin Award" should go to the wizard, who charged into the middle of a melee to administer healing potions.
You know, in some societies, he would have been given a (posthumous) medal of honor for risking/giving his life to try to save his comrades.

I'd say, of the description given, the wizard was the most heroic of the party. Perhaps the monk, too -- he ran up to help the ranger.

Is there no praise for heroics anymore? Or should PCs abandon each other at the first set back?

[For the record: I agree that this encounter was over the PCs' heads, and it was probably too quick for anyone to really realize it before it was too late.]

Quasqueton
 

OK, I have thought about it some more and have come to the conclusion that indeed it would be near impossible for the party to have won this encounter. My bad on the earlier posts.
 

Sammael said:
This sounds a bit like a case of a frustrated DM who didn't know how to challenge your overpowered party (you had no trouble handling every other encounter he threw at you in the past, right?) and went overboard.
.
Wow someone on the DM's side! I can sympathize as well.
Last night I hit a 5, 5th lvl pcs with what actually calculated as cr 9 (cr4 x2monsters, cr 6x2 NPC's) who had time to prepare - if not actually ambush PCs. PCs were slightly hurt, but cocky even knowing there was something bad ahead. I was expecting a TPK or single survior- I was right. one villan surived, one player died. Of corse the death is final, the PCs are not with reach of a cleric willing to cast raise for them.
Most PCs ended with single digit or negative hp. They had a great time, usually battles aren't that close for them. Im considering bumping up CRs but reworking the plot for deaths, and getting new PCs involved in the labrithian mystries is a challange.
 

random user said:
OK, so he's +1 for being a 5th level barbarian, +2 for raging, and -2 for being an orc (or does the initial orc save modifier not get taken into account?

.
that -2 is for having -2 wisdom[orc] combo'd with non elite warrior wis of 8 or 9 before mod.
 

Quasqueton said:
Of all the replies in this thread, this one struck me the most:You know, in some societies, he would have been given a (posthumous) medal of honor for risking/giving his life to try to save his comrades.

I'd say, of the description given, the wizard was the most heroic of the party. Perhaps the monk, too -- he ran up to help the ranger.

Is there no praise for heroics anymore? Or should PCs abandon each other at the first set back?

No, only at the second. With two PCs down... hmm.

Why was the Wizard the character with the healing potions, anyway?

Cheers!
 

Darkness said:
Five 3rd-level characters are about equal to a 4th-level party (i.e., of four characters). Further, their stats and equipment are very good. So I'd say the 'standard' EL to send against them (i.e., loss of 20-25% of their resources) would be around EL 6.

Four 5th-level orc barbarians are EL 9, maybe EL 10 if their gear and stats were really that good.

That's 3-4 ELs over what the standard I'd expect this party to handle. By the numbers, a TPK isn't too unlikely in this situation. With good tactics and average or better dice luck it's beatable with some casualties, though.

Looking at the party's actions, their tactics were insufficient for such a challenge. After the monk and ranger went down, the fight became very, very hard to win.
However, unless the players knew the level and stats of the orcs they were facing, they might not have been aware of the degree of danger they were confronted with until it was too late for at least a few of them.

In conclusion, tough encounter + insufficient tactics + not knowing when to retreat = TPK.

Nice analysis. I'd go a step further. With only one main meat shield (the fighter), even before the monk and ranger went down a fight against that many tough melee opponents would have been very, very hard to win. The moment they were down, it was Run or Die for everybody else.
 

Some thoughts on your tactics. :)

Herremann the Wise said:
- The Ranger was about 100 feet in front scouting.

Too far out. Especially at low levels when success on Spot and Listen is still so much of a gamble, a scout who's too far ahead to be reached by the meat shields within a round of charging/double-moving is a very dead scout.

Herremann the Wise said:
- The Monk saw something and went up ahead to warn the Ranger
- The rest of the group stayed back unable to see what the Monk had seen.

Not sure what happened here. Did the monk just run off without telling the others what he had seen? If so, bad move.

Knowing that their scout was out of reach from them and knowing the monk appeared to have spotted some danger ahead, the party needed to move in to close some of the distance to their scout.

The monk made another mistake moving up the entire way to the ranger. If he'd already spotted some sort of danger sign, he needed to make sure he wasn't putting his foot into the very trap he was trying warn the scout against.

Herremann the Wise said:
- The Ranger and Monk were then ambushed but made a spot and listen check respectively to avoid being ruled out of the partial surprise round. Unfortunately, the others failed DC 15 checks.
- Within 4 slashes of enraged Great Axe beats - one being a critical and another being for max damage - both the Ranger and Monk were down.

Bit of black luck rolling on the DM's part, it looks like. :) Still, at this point it should have become apparent to everyone watching that those weren't likely to be untrained (read, classless Monster Manual) orcs. Leading to obvious next tactical decision: run away.

Deciding not to run away at this point pretty much determined the eventual outcome of the fight. The ones who might still have gotten away after the party moved into melee range were the wizard with Exp Retreat cast on her and the Monk (if he'd been healed).

Herremann the Wise said:
- The Wizard acted next using a Glitterdust to blind 3 of the 4 Orcs.
- Both the Cleric and Fighter ran up to get some hitting happening.

What was the cleric doing not casting cure spells, not casting Hold Persons, Commands etc.? Each round a strong melee opponent can't attack is another chance for the main fighter to live a round longer and deal out more greatsword goodness to the enemy.

If the scout hadn't been so far out ahead or if the party had moved closer before, both the fighter and the cleric (if he decided to melee at this point) would have gotten their first attack in this round.

If the two had ranged weapons available, ranged attacks would have been good at this point, which would have forced the orcs to come moving in losing a round of attacks.

Herremann the Wise said:
- The Orcs slightly bedazzled were directed by the one non-blind orc to prepare for the others.
- The Wizard cast expeditious retreat and ran up to the fallen Ranger and Monk - she had healing potions.

What was the wizard doing not casting more spells to help with the combat? Didn't you have spells with combat application prepared?

Also as others have remarked, a wizard in melee isn't usually a good thing. The channeler (mage) in my Midnight game has stepped out from behind the melee line to Colour Spray a bunch of attacking orcs and lived - but he had a melee line to retreat behind and avoid being squashed the following round. You can do a stunt like that but it's wise _only_ if you have a melee line to retreat behind to get out of the way of counterattacks! That's just tactically speaking of course. If you as a player decided that she was going to go out as a hero, that's perfectly fine of course - sure is stylish as hell. :)

Herremann the Wise said:
- The Fighter lashed into the the group of Orcs missing miserably.
- The Cleric attacked the one Orc who had broken off and went toe to toe.
- The Orcs then hacked into the fighter whacking him to within an inch of his life.

The cleric needed to gang up on an orc with the fighter. Help flank to increase chances to hit, take an orc out of action as quickly as possible to reduce the number of counterattacks from the orcs next round, hope to draw attacks rather than let everybody gang up on the fighter. Might have allowed the fighter to live for a round longer.

Herremann the Wise said:
- The Wizard then healed the Ranger with a potion.

Without knowing the build of the two unconscious PCs, I'd suspect the monk would likely have been more useful in melee than the ranger, so he ought to have been healed first.

Herremann the Wise said:
- The Fighter and Cleric got in a hit each before the Orcs responded killing the big Greatsword wielding fighter.

Herremann the Wise said:
- The Wizard in an act of desperation pleaded to the Ranger to remember her as she went into range targetting a color spray at the three Orcs who had just felled the fighter. Only two of them were stunned with the other making a DC 16 Will Save check while enraged.
- She was then quickly killed while the Ranger attempting to avoid as many blows as possible succumbed to two Orcs taking one down in the process.
- The Cleric was the last one down having taken out his opponent only to be killed by the others.

:) Nice roleplaying, which was about the only tactical decision left to you at this point. Except of course running away, which would have saved your wizard rather than take her down together with the others. Even if the Colour Spray had stunned all three orcs, the Ranger and Cleric couldn't have killed them all three in just one round of stunning effect, so thinking tactically, those two PCs two were dead anyway at that point.


All this said, the encounter was very hard to win - and also hard to escape for some of the party unless the orcs had a reason not to pursue once the party fled. The fighter and cleric would have been caught first, the ranger might have escaped if the orcs took theri time about killing those two, the monk and the wizard with Ex Retreat could have gotten away.
 

Herremann the Wise said:
- The Monk saw something and went up ahead to warn the Ranger

This is the line that bothered me...

Did the monk spot the ambush or not? (he did well with -1 per 10ft range for spotting! I guess the ranger rolled poorly on his spot check too).

It seems to me that if the monk made his spot check he could say "OMG its an ambush! There's orcs in those bushes!" and that would have changed things dramatically.

I also wonder what the ranger was doing scouting... was he hiding in cover, moving silently? The orcs managed to spot him AND set up an ambush along the track in front of them?

It just seems to me that there was a whole lot of potentially inconsistent things happening even prior to the combat.

Cheers
 


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