Should this have been a TPK?

[Herremann the Wise]

Hi Everyone,

We had a bit of bad luck last session resulting in a TPK and I was wondering whether the encounter was too tough.

Our group consisted of 5 third level characters:

Elven Ranger
Human Monk
Half-Orc Fighter
Elven Wizard
Human Cleric

They have excellent stats (selected from 18,17,16,15,14,13) and have gained above average equipment for their level (for example +1 Keen Greatsword, +1 Plate Armour, +2 Ring of Pro etc.)

We had to fight four 5HD Orcs with Barbarian levels. They were also elite with average to good equipment and excellent stats - 20 Strength base before raging wielding Great Axes.

Personally, I thought this was a little tough but would like some opinions based on the above information. I thought the encounter was always going to be deadly - someone would die - if not be a TPK where as the DM disagrees saying that we should have handled it except for some poor decisions and rolling by the group.

Anyway, what actually happened was the following:

- The Ranger was about 100 feet in front scouting.
- The Monk saw something and went up ahead to warn the Ranger
- The rest of the group stayed back unable to see what the Monk had seen.
- The Ranger and Monk were then ambushed but made a spot and listen check respectively to avoid being ruled out of the partial surprise round. Unfortunately, the others failed DC 15 checks.
- Within 4 slashes of enraged Great Axe beats - one being a critical and another being for max damage - both the Ranger and Monk were down.
- The Wizard acted next using a Glitterdust to blind 3 of the 4 Orcs.
- Both the Cleric and Fighter ran up to get some hitting happening.
- The Orcs slightly bedazzled were directed by the one non-blind orc to prepare for the others.
- The Wizard cast expeditious retreat and ran up to the fallen Ranger and Monk - she had healing potions.
- The Fighter lashed into the the group of Orcs missing miserably.
- The Cleric attacked the one Orc who had broken off and went toe to toe.
- The Orcs then hacked into the fighter whacking him to within an inch of his life.
- The Wizard then healed the Ranger with a potion.
- The Fighter and Cleric got in a hit each before the Orcs responded killing the big Greatsword wielding fighter.
- The Wizard in an act of desperation pleaded to the Ranger to remember her as she went into range targetting a color spray at the three Orcs who had just felled the fighter. Only two of them were stunned with the other making a DC 16 Will Save check while enraged.
- She was then quickly killed while the Ranger attempting to avoid as many blows as possible succumbed to two Orcs taking one down in the process.
- The Cleric was the last one down having taken out his opponent only to be killed by the others.

Was this too tough for five 3rd level characters? Were we the victims of poor rolling and decisions?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Bendris Noulg]

Were we the victims of poor rolling and decisions?

I'd say it sounds mostly like bad rolls, although the monk moving ahead while everyone else stayed behind was likely a mistake, cutting the party 60/40.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Was this too tough for five 3rd level characters? Were we the victims of poor rolling and decisions?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

4 5th level barbarian orcs comes up as a 9th level encounter. So a very difficult fight by the numbers.

Add that to what sounds like nasty dicerolling from both sides, and not so good tactics, and you've got a TPK.

 

[MerricB]

So, you had five 3rd level character fighting four 5th level characters? I think the result was predictable.

The encounter level of those orcs was about EL 9. The standard EL your party should be able to handle is about EL 4.

Add to that, the Orcs were aware of you and you weren't, and the EL gets even higher.

###

Regardless of that disparity, once the Ranger and Monk went down, you had to flee. At that point, you're in a losing situation. The main reason for TPKs is party stupidity: you have to know when to cut your losses.

Now, one thing mitigating against that is that you probably weren't aware that these were 5th level orcs, but even so, after the Ranger and Monk went down quickly, you've got to realise something's wrong.

###

My conclusion: The encounter was far too tough, but not a TPK as it was set up: the rest of the party should have run.

Cheers!

 

[Herpes Cineplex]

Just from a cursory reading of the fight, it sounds like the party was very successfully ambushed by a group which could have done some serious damage to them even if it had been a fair fight. I mean, before the rest of the party had a chance to do anything, two of them were out of the fight, making it four-on-three (which is bad even when the four aren't noticeably stronger than the three).

The wizard sounds like she had almost exactly the wrong kind of spells prepared for the encounter as it actually played out; spells that make the front line's job easier by hindering the enemy are great, provided you actually have a front line. In this case, the party wasn't lucky enough to ever field much of one, so most of her spell's effectiveness was wasted. She basically bought the party a couple of extra rounds, but since most of the party was already out of the fight, there wasn't anyone to take advantage of it. And then the fighter's bad luck let him get dogpiled before he could actually accomplish anything.

If the ranger had spotted the orcs in time to double back and rejoin the rest of the group, or if the whole party had moved up immediately, you guys might have been able to pull it off with maybe one or two casualties at most. I mean, you did okay even considering how badly split up you were and how poorly you were rolling, so I think you could've taken 'em in a fairer fight.

--
there's a reason why the old rule 'never split up the party' was established, y'know
ryan

 

[Anthraxus]

Consindering that one 5th level Barbarian Orc is CR5, and a challenge to the party on his own, yeah. 4 orcs might be a little overboard.

I think that's one reason they switched the Orc's default weapon from Greataxe to Falchion- One lucky hit with a greataxe can kill low level characters pretty easy.

-A

 

[random user]

It's always easy to play what-ifs. I'm sure that there are many things that could have been done to change things around. Whther one would think about them or whether they could have realistically been done is unknown.

Here are some thoughts:

1. did the monk know whether the something had already seen the party or the ranger? (ie did the monk see that the orcs were waiting in ambush?). If so, then all chance of surprising them has been lost, and the monk should have called for the ranger to hide or run back. Alternately, a smart party will ideally have someone that can fake a bird call or something similar to alert the ranger there is a problem, or, lacking that, a signal whistle which is less ideal. If there is a good chance that the ranger is stepping into an ambush though, it may be the best option.

2. Did the monk and ranger get their actions before the orcs? If so they could have retreated. If not, well, it's not good to be split up and ambushed... not too much you can do about that after you are already there.

3. Did the fighter have combat expertise? It seems like if you can get the monk and the ranger back up, you guys are going to win. Thus, stalling may be a good strategy here. If the fighter can draw the attacks of the orcs and not get hit, that would be good. Not sure about going full defensive if he doesn't have combat expertise. On the other hand, 4 raging orcs aren't going to be missing that much (well, except they are blinded, did they roll the 50% miss for total concealment?)

4. If the fighter was within an inch of his life, why did the cleric not heal him? Also this would be a good time to go full defensive / full combat expertise with the fighter if not already done. He's already gotten the attention of the orcs, now he needs to stay alive.

5. Did the cleric have a hold person? Raging orcs aren't going to have a good will save. Doing that in the first round would have helped a lot. With such high stats a cleric should have 2+1 2nd level spells.

Here's a way you may have won.

Monk alerts ranger that there is a trap. Ranger dives under cover. 4 orcs appear. Cleric holds person; wizard casts glitterdust. Fighter and monk use range weapons, fighter issues the challenge to orcs to get their attention.

Next round, another hold person and the color spray if necessary. Fighter and monk close in to melee. Ranger comes from in back and should be able to flank.

Now the fight should be down to 5 on 2 (between 2x hold person, glitterdust (though tasha's might have been better there if the wizard knew it), and color spray at least 2 should be out of the picture) for long enough that that they two should die before the other two are active again. Then kill the other two.

Not saying that it would definately have worked (rolls might go against you) but I would think that certainly you had a chance.

Others have mentioned that the 4 level 5s is quite a challenge in terms of CR. However, the party has increased stats and decent magic, and has 5 members instead of 4. I think it should have been a tough but winnable fight, if you hadn't gotten ambushed.

The main problem with this, of course, is that you would have had to realize that 4 orcs were a real threat instead of some chump scouting force. Unless you had a warning somehow, I can't see most parties wasting so many resources on 4 orcs immediately.

 

[Nifelhein]

I think that's one reason they switched the Orc's default weapon from Greataxe to Falchion- One lucky hit with a greataxe can kill low level characters pretty easy.

If you did not mention then i would haev never noticed! And yes, they were totla killers before... on the subject, I think that this was highly predicatble, specialy because the party hpo may even equal to something the orcs would take but 2 roudns to drop below 0...

Although I agree with Merric, that is, the situation was not a TPK, it was a PPK (partial party kill), with the ranger being the one to die and the monk entering in it on his own...

 

[ph0rk]

- The Ranger was about 100 feet in front scouting.
- The Monk saw something and went up ahead to warn the Ranger
- The rest of the group stayed back unable to see what the Monk had seen.
- The Ranger and Monk were then ambushed but made a spot and listen check respectively to avoid being ruled out of the partial surprise round. Unfortunately, the others failed DC 15 checks.
- Within 4 slashes of enraged Great Axe beats - one being a critical and another being for max damage - both the Ranger and Monk were down.

That ends it right there. Your scout(s) sprung the ambush rather than avoiding it. Had they chosen to flee to the party during the surprise round, screaming at the top of their lungs, things may have gone differently.

How many hit points did the ranger and mink have? Using standard dmg average per die rules and a 16 for con, i'd say they both should have had around 24.... a pair of smacks each from the 2-hand and probably power attacking orcs downing them isn't that surprising. (what, the orcs had a str of at least 18 i'd guess, thats 1d12+6 per axe, plus magic damage, and the crit would have been at least 3d12+18, almost certain to take one of them out).

- The Wizard acted next using a Glitterdust to blind 3 of the 4 Orcs.
- Both the Cleric and Fighter ran up to get some hitting happening.
- The Orcs slightly bedazzled were directed by the one non-blind orc to prepare for the others.
- The Wizard cast expeditious retreat and ran up to the fallen Ranger and Monk - she had healing potions.
- The Fighter lashed into the the group of Orcs missing miserably.
- The Cleric attacked the one Orc who had broken off and went toe to toe.
- The Orcs then hacked into the fighter whacking him to within an inch of his life.
- The Wizard then healed the Ranger with a potion.
- The Fighter and Cleric got in a hit each before the Orcs responded killing the big Greatsword wielding fighter.
- The Wizard in an act of desperation pleaded to the Ranger to remember her as she went into range targetting a color spray at the three Orcs who had just felled the fighter. Only two of them were stunned with the other making a DC 16 Will Save check while enraged.
- She was then quickly killed while the Ranger attempting to avoid as many blows as possible succumbed to two Orcs taking one down in the process.
- The Cleric was the last one down having taken out his opponent only to be killed by the others.

Was this too tough for five 3rd level characters? Were we the victims of poor rolling and decisions?

You got jumped. The time to flee would have been near the beginning of the encounter. As for CR, assuming each orc was cr5, that was probably an encounter of level 9+, especially considering the ambush. The bad tactics just made it sting a little more

 

[ph0rk]

5. Did the cleric have a hold person? Raging orcs aren't going to have a good will save. Doing that in the first round would have helped a lot. With such high stats a cleric should have 2+1 2nd level spells.

eh? rage grants a +2 morale bonus to will saves.

Assuming they had 4 or 5 barbarian levels and a 14 wis, thats a will save of 5; granting a nearly 50% chance they'll save on the hold persons. Still would have been a good spell to use, though I'd have saved one or two to convert to heals.