D&D 5E Should WotC Keep the Love Domain as is?

[Celebrim]

As I have stated before a couple times on this topic in the past 24 hours: that is not entirely true. Aphrodite represented more than eros (as you put it), including "higher" love and even war. Religion / Mythology is a complex, convoluted, and changing thing, check it out: Aphrodite

I'm quite aware of the topic. I'm also aware of your opinions. However, to make a discussion of Aphrodites cultic representations in any depth would unfortunately violate the old "Eric's grandma rule". Just as terms like "love" tend to be slippery, terms like "higher love" tend to be even more slippery.

As far as I will say is that most of what you are citing has to do with a combination of how Aphrodite was reappropriated by Neoplatonists the 6th century AD or so, as well as how Greeks tend to view local deities as simply alternate names for their own familiar deities and tended to subsume local cults within their own cults (or in the case of Sparta, possibly the reverse occurred, since the Spartans were not originally Greeks but invaders).

 

[cmad1977]

“Should we keep it as is?”
We say that there are no stupid questions. However, we only say this to children so that their feelings don’t get hurt.

It’s the first pass of a new sub-class. Of course you change it after play testing and feedback.

 

[dave2008]

I'm quite aware of the topic. I'm also aware of your opinions. However, to make a discussion of Aphrodites cultic representations in any depth would unfortunately violate the old "Eric's grandma rule". Just as terms like "love" tend to be slippery, terms like "higher love" tend to be even more slippery.

As far as I will say is that most of what you are citing has to do with a combination of how Aphrodite was reappropriated by Neoplatonists the 6th century AD or so, as well as how Greeks tend to view local deities as simply alternate names for their own familiar deities and tended to subsume local cults within their own cults (or in the case of Sparta, possibly the reverse occurred, since the Spartans were not originally Greeks but invaders).

So we agree then. You could have done that with a lot fewer words!

 

[Umbran]

Never said Zeus was her husband only that he was running around cheating on his marriage. He's also not Aphrodite's father, she was born from the blood of Ouranos when it fell into the ocean, she's older than Zeus.

If you want to be really picky, Hesiod said Aphrodite arose from Ouranous' genitals when they were thrown into the water. Ouranous' blood gave rise to the Giants, Erinyes/Furies, and the Meliae (ash tree nymphs).

Though admittedly there could be a myth I'm unaware of that claims her as Zeus's daughter.

It isn't terribly obscure - the Illiad says this.

 

[Celebrim]

So we agree then. You could have done that with a lot fewer words!

Oh, OK. Good. Yes, had I known we agree I would have used a lot fewer words. The point is that I'm arguing Greeks of the classical era had no real association with Aphrodite and love as we use the word - not romantic love (for which they had no specific concept*), not even the other sorts of "loves" that they recognized such as philia or storge. This topic can get really heated for a lot of reasons, some academic, some less so, and I was afraid we were about to get into one.

*It's probably not the case that romantic love was an completely unknown concept in ancient Greece - there is some evidence for example of feelings something like romantic love between Odysseus and Penelope. It's just not an experience that they could have easily described or communicated to another ancient Greek. A Greek person of the classical era experiencing what we'd now call romantic love would likely have have described it either as eros (if not directed toward their spouse) or as agape (if directed toward one's spouse), but neither word meant exactly what we think of as romantic love. A rapist would have described themselves as experiencing eros toward someone they raped, or a man would feel eros toward a prostitute - neither feeling being remotely what we think of as (romantic) love. Likewise, a parent would have described the love they felt for a favored child they were especially proud of as agape the same as they would have described love for their spouse, but when we say we "love" our children we generally don't mean it in the same sense as we "love" our spouse.

What is the case is that romantic love between a man and a woman was such a comparatively unimportant concept, that they didn't feel a need to dwell on it, or despite the plurality of deities that they imagined, create one that personified it. There are no happily married couples in Olympus, nor any that share the mutual attraction, respect, and shared fidelity we associate with the concept.

Likewise it really annoys me when eros is translated as any sort of love, since I feel this is a very bad translation. It could be better translated as "madness" than love. So, while my annoyance with the "Love Domain" is rather different than the Twitter user that started the firestorm - I feel her definition equates love with sex, an understandable but poignant mistake - the annoyance that I have shares a lot in common with hers, namely, a feeling that we ought to be very clear about what we mean by "love".

And I started out this post intended to use a lot fewer words than I find that I have used.

 

[cbwjm]

If you want to be really picky, Hesiod said Aphrodite arose from Ouranous' genitals when they were thrown into the water. Ouranous' blood gave rise to the Giants, Erinyes/Furies, and the Meliae (ash tree nymphs).



It isn't terribly obscure - the Illiad says this.

Yeah I think I either mixed up a couple of myths or was remembering a sanitised version for children.

 

[Celebrim]

...a sanitized version for children.

There is a lot of that going around, and I don't approve.

My daughters got the unexpurgated version as soon as they showed interest in Greek Myth, which was a bit after reading Percy Jackson in Middle School.

In High School, when the subject came up in class, they got really annoyed by the romanticized versions of the Greek deities presented to them.

"Excuse me, but Zeus IS NOT A NICE PERSON. Like, his problems go way beyond not being faithful to his wife."

 

[Son of the Serpent]

There is a lot of that going around, and I don't approve.

My daughters got the unexpurgated version as soon as they showed interest in Greek Myth, which was a bit after reading Percy Jackson in Middle School.

In High School, when the subject came up in class, they got really annoyed by the romanticized versions of the Greek deities presented to them.

"Excuse me, but Zeus IS NOT A NICE PERSON. Like, his problems go way beyond not being faithful to his wife."

Zeus and hera are honestly two of the nastiest people ever to be worshipped as gods of virtue. Pretty sure a large part of why the greeks worshipped the two of them (among other reasons) was purely fear based. Like worshiping pazuzu for another different culture as example.

 

[dave2008]

Oh, OK. Good. Yes, had I known we agree I would have used a lot fewer words. The point is that I'm arguing Greeks of the classical era had no real association with Aphrodite and love as we use the word - not romantic love (for which they had no specific concept*), not even the other sorts of "loves" that they recognized such as philia or storge. This topic can get really heated for a lot of reasons, some academic, some less so, and I was afraid we were about to get into one.

*It's probably not the case that romantic love was an completely unknown concept in ancient Greece - there is some evidence for example of feelings something like romantic love between Odysseus and Penelope. It's just not an experience that they could have easily described or communicated to another ancient Greek. A Greek person of the classical era experiencing what we'd now call romantic love would likely have have described it either as eros (if not directed toward their spouse) or as agape (if directed toward one's spouse), but neither word meant exactly what we think of as romantic love. A rapist would have described themselves as experiencing eros toward someone they raped, or a man would feel eros toward a prostitute - neither feeling being remotely what we think of as (romantic) love. Likewise, a parent would have described the love they felt for a favored child they were especially proud of as agape the same as they would have described love for their spouse, but when we say we "love" our children we generally don't mean it in the same sense as we "love" our spouse.

What is the case is that romantic love between a man and a woman was such a comparatively unimportant concept, that they didn't feel a need to dwell on it, or despite the plurality of deities that they imagined, create one that personified it. There are no happily married couples in Olympus, nor any that share the mutual attraction, respect, and shared fidelity we associate with the concept.

Likewise it really annoys me when eros is translated as any sort of love, since I feel this is a very bad translation. It could be better translated as "madness" than love. So, while my annoyance with the "Love Domain" is rather different than the Twitter user that started the firestorm - I feel her definition equates love with sex, an understandable but poignant mistake - the annoyance that I have shares a lot in common with hers, namely, a feeling that we ought to be very clear about what we mean by "love".

And I started out this post intended to use a lot fewer words than I find that I have used.

However, I think we need to be careful assuming how and what people worshiped over 2000+ years ago. Look at current religions - the faithful are all over the place in what they believe. I think it is safe to assume that their was a wide variety in how people worshiped and viewed the Greco-roman gods. Heck, if I remember correctly, near the end, the worship of Zeus in some areas very much bordered on monotheism (or that was how it was explained in my University mythology class I took 28+ years ago).

What the written myths tell us about the gods, is only a small fraction of what people actually believed I would assume.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Zeus and hera are honestly two of the nastiest people ever to be worshipped as gods of virtue. Pretty sure a large part of why the greeks worshipped the two of them (among other reasons) was purely fear based. Like worshiping pazuzu for another different culture as example.

You have to consider the sources of the stories we read. Archaic/classical Greeks were individuals like everybody else and had differing opinions of their gods. Homer, for instance, is notoriously not a fan; you can find later writers complaining about how unflattering his portrayal is. A pious believer in Zeus would have loved and admired him as a benevolent paternal figure who keeps order in the universe. Now, as @Celebrim explained, classical Greeks had pretty awful views on women and sexual relations (even by the standards of the era), and this pious believer would most likely have seen the myths of Zeus raping and seducing as evidence of him exercising his awesome power. And they would have also have been well aware of the myths of Zeus punishing people for their hubris, so they might have feared him a bit in that sense. But they would not have viewed him as nasty, and I don't think it would be accurate to say their worship was "purely fear based". The Abrahamic God also metes out punishments and condemns people to Hell, but believers love him far more than they fear him. Same deal. Remember that modern depictions of God as a big man with a white beard in the sky borrow that image from Zeus.

And Hera, for her part, her perceived nastiness comes from the popularity of from the Iliad (where all the gods are douchebags) and the Heracles myths (which are pretty definitively pro-Zeus). She is a much more positive figure elsewhere, a protector of families, women, and children. The sort of deity a wife might pray to to keep the household functioning while her husband was out committing rape and violence.