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D&D 5E Should WotC Keep the Love Domain as is?

Should WotC Keep the Love Domain as is?

  • Yes including name

    Votes: 20 27.8%
  • No, the mechanics are creep period

    Votes: 24 33.3%
  • Yes, but rename it (possible examples Passion/Lust/Emotion/Charm Domain)

    Votes: 28 38.9%

Celebrim

Legend
Possibly, the fact it was the only way to vote "no" was the decisive factor, here.

I should like to hear from some "no" voters what they meant by it then, or why they voted "no" anyway rather than protesting that no answer fit their views. Supposing that "the mechanics are creep period" was simply the closest to what they do believe, what did they believe?
 

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Celebrim

Legend
That is the only "no" option on the poll. And the strawman more has to do with the characterization of these people as angry, irrational people trying to remove all charm spells from the game. Very clearly many of them found the implications unfortunate because of the ties to a character dedicated to the concept of love.

Yes, I said that. And yes I noted the strawman as well. But that still doesn't tell me what the "no" voters meant by the vote.
 

prabe

Tension, apprension, and dissension have begun
Supporter
I should like to hear from some "no" voters what they meant by it then, or why they voted "no" anyway rather than protesting that no answer fit their views. Supposing that "the mechanics are creep period" was simply the closest to what they do believe, what did they believe?

I think it meant, "No. WotC should not keep the Love Domain as it is." Reading more than that into it seems to be looking for hypocrisy.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I think it meant, "No. WotC should not keep the Love Domain as it is." Reading more than that into it seems to be looking for hypocrisy.

I'm not looking for hypocrisy. I'm looking for understanding. Supposing the no votes meant, "WotC should not keep the Love Domain as it is.", then that implies to me that the problem goes beyond the labels or fluff given to the domain, and that any domain with any rewording - calling it Beauty or something - but the same mechanics would be objectionable. Do you think that is a fair reading, and if it is, why didn't they vote for renaming it?

Or to get to the heart of my curiosity, was anyone voting "no" voting for an objection to the mechanics themselves, and if they were, would they explain why?

To show that I by no means have any malice toward these persons, I'll confess that the whole discussion has caused me to do a lot of internal questioning along the lines of, "Given that you have for decades insisted that the charm person spell is criminal and it's usage immoral, why have you not tagged it [Evil] in the mechanics the way you have tagged other spells you have called out in the campaign world as criminal and immoral?" So my sympathy to both sides of this argument is rather higher than you seem to think.
 

Utterly inappropriate
You have to consider the sources of the stories we read. Archaic/classical Greeks were individuals like everybody else and had differing opinions of their gods. Homer, for instance, is notoriously not a fan; you can find later writers complaining about how unflattering his portrayal is. A pious believer in Zeus would have loved and admired him as a benevolent paternal figure who keeps order in the universe. Now, as @Celebrim explained, classical Greeks had pretty awful views on women and sexual relations (even by the standards of the era), and this pious believer would most likely have seen the myths of Zeus raping and seducing as evidence of him exercising his awesome power. And they would have also have been well aware of the myths of Zeus punishing people for their hubris, so they might have feared him a bit in that sense. But they would not have viewed him as nasty, and I don't think it would be accurate to say their worship was "purely fear based". The Abrahamic God also metes out punishments and condemns people to Hell, but believers love him far more than they fear him. Same deal. Remember that modern depictions of God as a big man with a white beard in the sky borrow that image from Zeus.

And Hera, for her part, her perceived nastiness comes from the popularity of from the Iliad (where all the gods are douchebags) and the Heracles myths (which are pretty definitively pro-Zeus). She is a much more positive figure elsewhere, a protector of families, women, and children. The sort of deity a wife might pray to to keep the household functioning while her husband was out committing rape and violence.
I dont think there is a single thing about seduction (in the default sense of the word with no extra assumptions) that is bad or evil per se. Just like the word "lie" or "trick". Seducing men and women is generally jist a thing humans do. Its neither good or bad. Not by default anyway. Now rape on the other hand would have at least a general default of being particularly wrong. Generally. But just as there are instances of murder being for the greater good i can imagine plenty of ways the same couod happen with rape. Seduction unlike rape and murder though really doesnt have a default of being bad or wrong.

As far as hera goes: hephaestus.

Mod Edit: In case anyone misses the header on this post - this is entirely inappropriate, and Son of the Serpent will no longer be part of this conversation. ~Umbran
 
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However, I think we need to be carefully assuming how and what people worshiped over 2000+ years ago. Look at current religions - the faithful are all over the place in what they believe. I think it is safe to assume that their was a wide variety in how people worshiped and viewed the Greco-roman gods. Heck, if I remember correctly, near the end, the worship of Zeus in some areas very much bordered on monotheism (or that was how it was explained in my University mythology class I took 28+ years ago).

What the written myths tell us about the gods, is only a small fraction of people actually believed I would assume.
thus why "by jove" is so common even in societies that couod care less about greek myths.
 





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