Should you be able to use 'bonus saves' to help folks get out of 'end of turn' stuff?

[UngeheuerLich]

sorry, but this is no house rule... it is not a houserule anymore since PHB 2...

 

[P1NBACK]

Is there an echo in here? Yeah...

It very well could still be a house-rule with the above poster's game. Not everyone uses PHB2 or errata in their games. Therefore, if you're playing strictly by what's printed in the PHB1, you could very well have "house rules" that deal with issues that have already been fixed in the "official" version of the rules.

 

[Nifft]

Heh, that was my first house rule and first errata request, before the game was even published.

I was pretty happy when Player's Handbook 2 came out a year and change ago and made it official... so, not a house rule anymore.

Awesome, I love when that happens.

Thanks, -- N

 

[FireLance]

Does anyone else play that bonus saves can let people break out of effects with a set duration, even if they don't normally offer a 'save ends' option?

I would allow it. But don't tell my players.

 

[Stalker0]

Rules Forum: Bonus saves don't work on end of turn effects.

Any other discussion should go to the house rules forum.

 

[FireLance]

Rules Forum: Bonus saves don't work on end of turn effects.

Any other discussion should go to the house rules forum.

If you want to get all technical about it, it technically isn't the "Rules Forum"; it's the "4E Discussion" forum.

 

[Aegeri]

I've actually allowed solo monsters to do this in my campaigns and the effect is pretty dramatic. Solos can save against daze, dominate, stun and unconscious conditions as if they were save ends. So if they get afflicted by one of these "until the end of X players" turn, it means they can save it at their normal bonus. If they fail it still ends as normal anyway.

What this has resulted in is that PCs no longer bother loading up on non-save ends until end of next turn daze, dominate, stun and unconscious effects. They're now absolutely worse than a save ends power against solos, because they aren't modified by anything that affects saving throws (as the solos saving throw is from a power, not because they count as save ends effects in any way - despite being saveable). It also means that solos are very hard to permanently lock down just by throwing powers like destructive salutation at them round after round. Especially with a single immediate interrupt save, as they count the stun as save ends either way, so missing with destructive salutation is no longer superior to hitting with it. If they fail vs. the miss it only lasts until the wizards next turn anyway, but failing vs. the hit means it may last much longer.

The result is solo battles that play much better, are more fun and don't end up being the PCs whacking on a defenseless creature for 3 rounds until it dies. I have been very tempted to use a "shake off" rule for non-save ends effects for a while - applied generally. This is because in my mind, save ends effects should be the be all and end all of effects. If it's not save ends, it shouldn't be anywhere near as good. Yet 4E too strongly rewards powers that are until the end of a creatures turn as compared to save ends, because there is very little you can do about them - with copious ways of saving a save ends effect (or strong bonuses for monsters).

 

[the_amnesiac]

I like the idea of allowing solos to save vs. end of turn. I have so far been very disappointed by solos, most of the time they just get locked down and hammered. Dragons especially have been very underwhelming.

 

[Aegeri]

I like the idea of allowing solos to save vs. end of turn. I have so far been very disappointed by solos, most of the time they just get locked down and hammered. Dragons especially have been very underwhelming.

Monster Manual Dragons are a bit behind on concepts like "action economy", but I must say that the MM2 and Draconomicon 2 metallics put up a good fight. Low heroic chromatics function okay as well. I find though the ability to save action denial conditions really does help them a lot. It also means when epic creatures are getting immediate interrupt saves, it lets them get rid of those conditions instantly as well, as opposed to them being "guaranteed".

It's daft to me that Lolth can be chain stunned/dominated with zero chance of ever getting out of it by missing/using end of next turn effects, yet shrugs off nearly every similar epic tier level power that is save ends. Hence why I made the rule. It has the advantage of being pretty straightforward and easy to understand as well, so PCs always know how it functions.

 

[P1NBACK]

I like the idea of allowing solos to save vs. end of turn. I have so far been very disappointed by solos, most of the time they just get locked down and hammered. Dragons especially have been very underwhelming.

I like this idea also. Consider it stolen.