Shouldn't Prestige Classes be done differently?

[JoeGKushner]

A guild, in and of itself, is not necessarily only made up of those members who reach it's higher ranks.

For example, a mages guild could have many different types of mages in it, and some members might specialize in different fields but those in the upper ranks would probably have some type of mage guild PrC even as their guards and scouts don't have those PrCs.

Guildcraft by Bastion is a good example and Guilds by AEG has some more material.

Having said that, Complete Adventurer has some organizations with a few PrCs in them. Once again, it's not something every member is going to be a part of, but it can fit several ideas and concepts behind it.

Do you have a specific thing you're trying to accomplish? I can't see where multi-classing in and of itself wouldn't be something that most guilds wouldn't benefit from even in a 'bland' campaign.

One important thing to keep in mind is the game terminology and the 'roleplaying' terminology. Just because a member is in the Order of the Arcane Arrow doesn't mean's she's a member of the PrC itself.

And as far as product pimping... well, it's not like Phil provided a link to one of his products and it is an appropriate answer.

 

[EricNoah]

A classic organization, the Harpers, has members from all sorts of classes in it. There are some Harper-specific prestige classes (some tailored more toward rangers, some toward bards, some toward clerics or wizards), but you don't need to have those classes to be in the organization or to call yourself a Harper. I do, however, like the idea of some kind of shared benefit that's quantifiable in game rules.

 

[Aries_Omega]

Prestige Cure

I found that I like the idea of prestige class quals that they have in Unearthed Arcana (pg 210) of a "test based" quals. I mean just because you have certain skills at this level and all this other stuff plus you killed someone should not preclude you from taking levels in a prestige class. Also it makes it more realistic and gives great adventure hooks. I mean an assassin guild does have people who are assassins but are not of the assassin prestige class as was stated before. I recommend to use something along the lines of whats in UA for prestige classes for those who are frustrated. I use them and my players love it. Then again I also make paladins, rangers and bards a prestige class also in additon to the paladin variants that they have in Unearthed Arcana.

My question to you all is for anyone. The test based qual for prestige classes IMHO is the best way of going about prestige classes. In UA they give sample ones for all the SRD prestige classes. Has anyone came up with tests for other prestige classes. If so please share. Give us what the quals are normally and then what the test is. For example....for the assassin prestige class.

-------------------------------------
Normal Quals:
Alignment: Any evil.
Skills: Disguise 4 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks.
Special: The character must kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins.
DM's Note: A huge bore. Players pester you....hey I killed a villager can I join now?

Test Quals: (slightly modded for my campagin)
The Test of Crvu u Khalai - "Eliminate, then replace. After the prespective assassin candidate has contacted the Assassin's Guild and made it known that they would like to petetion to join they are contacted by anonymous letter in the future after they are rejected for any number of reasons. The letter states that they are hired to do some work outside the providence of the assassin guild to target a well known functionary in the local noble's court such as a chamberlain, troubadour or court wizard. The now "rejected" candidate takes the job and must sneak into the castle on a full moon, kill the target and impersonate said target. The test is successful if the candiate walks out of the castle disgusied as the target when the gates open in the morning carrying the target's head in a satchel. The candidate is to take the head to location thinking "ehh....another head another 100,000 gp" and finds out that they are now in the guild and passed thier test.....and also....that was a freebie....no pay due.

DM Notes: Better and makes gaining a prestige class....even one that is viewd as crappy as a cool thing that is earned not just given for having a Move Silently skill at +8 and killing Frank the Farmer on a whim.


Aries

 

[The_Universe]

Well, your assassin's guild can have wizards - rename another prestige class that focuses on spellcasters becoming murders for hire, and you're set.

I for one use a wide variety of classes and prestige classes for most of my in-game organizations. For my Talon Justices (sort of like travelling marshalls/sheriffs) I use the Consecrated Harrier, the Blood Hound, and the Justiciar (and sometimes the Thieftaker from the Wheel of Time game). They all make useful manhunter/investigative types, and allow a little variety in path and type for what's essentially the same thing.

For me, the point of organizational membership should be tying something together by theme - and just adding more than one class to an organization can do that. But do the Talon Justices have a lot of wizards? No. They're not very efficient manhunters, so the organization just doesn't have training to suit them.

YMMV.

 

[the Jester]

In my opinion, the way to have an overarching connection between organization members is to have some organization-created/specific feats. So for instance, all the members of the Fraternity of Happy Flowers have access to the Flower Gardening and Flower Mastery feats.

 

[nyrfherdr]

In the Iron Kingdoms Character Guide from Privateer Press, they present Feat chains that are tied to organizations.
They have Wizard Orders, Alchemy societies and a Mechanik's Union concept that I remember off the top of my head.
The feats provide both RP and game benefits, some more tangible than others.

I think that fits your idea very well.
They have Prestige Classes too, but they are unique to Roles that need to be filled not to the Organization as a whole.

I hope that helps.
Game ON!
Nyrf

 

[Abstraction]

How about 1-level prestige classes? Most members of the organization, guild, cult or whatever take this prestige class, but it is only a single level. That might nicely tie together the members while still having each be quite different. I might prefer this to having five or six prestige classes for EACH organization (ala Harpers).

In fact, it might be a better way for me to do most prestige classes in my game. Entry to each isn't very difficult, but entry to several might be a big strain on skill points & feats.

EDIT: The basic reason that I shy away from the idea of feat-based organization is that feats shouldn't be as powerful or as "packaged" as a level in prestige class. For instance, I have a group in my game that worship a reptilian water goddess. I want the members to be transformed into the reptilian subtype and gain water breathing. Too much for a feat/feats to do.

 

[Insight]

I don't see what having a Prestige Class has to do with being in a Guild. Sure, it makes sense that most of the members of the Assassins' Guild have the Assassin PrC, but I'm not quite clear on why this would need to be a strict requirement. I'm afraid there's not enough outside the box thinking going on here. Wouldn't the Assassins' Guild need to have members that can do things other than kill people? I imagine they would have need for administrators, negotiators, possibly potion and magic item makers, etc., not to mention non-killing folks that might be called on to steal stuff, etc.

Perhaps the real problem here is the focus of the group. If your Assassins' Guild is really just like organized labor or something, where everyone in the organization does the same thing (I know, they have administrators too), then that's one thing. But guilds in and of themselves are not inherently homogenous. If you want to make them homogenous in your campaign, then you almost have to force everyone in the guild to join your PrC. If the guild is instead a collection of people that have a common goal, live in a certain area, whatever, then I don't see why you need to make the PrC a requirement.

For example, let's use the Assassins' Guild. If you go the homogenous route, everyone in the organization takes the Assassin PrC. That means that nearly everyone has rogue levels, and probably a bit of fighter or whatnot, but in essence, they are very close to being the same sort of character. This is pretty boring. If you go with the more diverse approach, most (let's say 75%) of the population takes the Assassin PrC - these are the 'rank and file' who go out on jobs. The rest of the guild is made up of specialists - wizards (creating magic items and potions), rogues (stealing stuff, gathering info), bards (lots of possibilities here), fighters (guard duty, protection, enforcers), clerics (healing, creating poisons), etc., who perform functions other than going out on jobs.

I find the diverse approach a lot more palletable. With the homogenous guild, you pigeon-hole every member into a specific class grouping, and most of the characters in your game probably can't join the guild. Maybe that's what you want. But if you really want a good portion (or all) of your characters to join a guild, consider the diverse approach (rank and file with specialists). This better fits a campaign concept of a guild as opposed to a stricly metagaming one.

 

[Abstraction]

Actually, that's pretty much my complaint entirely. Prestige classes seem to force an organization into a pretty limited scope.

 

[Insight]

Actually, that's pretty much my complaint entirely. Prestige classes seem to force an organization into a pretty limited scope.

But my point is exactly that you don't have to let GAME MECHANICS dictate the campaign to you. If you are the GM, YOU decide what your organizations are like, where they are located, how they are comprised, etc. YOU put the face and personality on the guild, not the game mechanics themselves.

Listen, if you decide that every member of the Assassins Guild has to take the Assassin PrC, that's fine. But there's no reason why it has to be that way. You could justifiably say "Well, most of them have the Assassin PrC, but the guild is willing to accept others on a case-by-case basis."

I don't think you're seeing organizations and PrCs as being two different things. There are organizations that have no one with a specific PrC. There are organizations in which everyone has a specific PrC. And there are plenty of PrCs that don't inherently belong to an organization at all. But in terms of your campaign, you decide this, not the rules as written. Unless you want to strictly abide by the rules as written, but that's up to you.

Now, if you want to create PrCs to fit a given organization, that is another matter entirely, and I applaud that sort of thinking. But such a PrC should be more flexible and unfortunately, less useful than your standard PrC. This is because the usefulness of a PrC is inherently dependent on how hard the PrC is to attain. I can see an organization PrC that maybe gives you a few feats and certain class skills.

In your example of worshipping a reptile goddess and getting turned into a different type, I suppose that could be a class ability, but changing a character's type is pretty drastic. You'll notice that in the few PrCs that do this, it isn't until fairly high level, usually the final level of a 10-level class.