Shouldn't Prestige Classes be done differently?

[Abstraction]

One of the functions of prestige classes is to serve as a basis for organizations. Not all prestige classes, but a good number. However, these 10-level and even 5-level prestige classes only serve to make the members of an organization that has an organizational prestige class cookie cutter. Perfect case in point: Red Wizard of Thay.

I really would like to campaign for 4E to include 1-level prestige classes for the purpose of organizations. Obviously not what you want with, say, a transformational prestige class. I really think it would help tie together what would ordinarily be a disparate organization (again, like the Harpers). Maybe include the caveat that a character can only belong to one? Until that time, I think I will work this idea up for my own houserules.

 

[Henry]

I find this argument unusual to my ears; the reason? Prestige classes were originally DESIGNED to be world- or guild-specific. The suggestion in the 3E DMG was for each DM to design his own prestige classes to meet the needs of his or her campaign. Abstraction, this is what I would recommend, since they aren't fitting your needs. At the least, look through the PrCs available to you, and make just enough alteration to suit your needs. If that guild of Crimson Shadows is too broad for a shadowdancer to fill, change the alignment and pre-req's to something else that means the character would need to be around 5th level, and then substitute the hide in plain sight for a set of spells unique to the 'Shadows, or give them a demonic familiar in place of summoning shadows.

Even if you don't change the pre-req's or class abilities, there's no reason a wizard CAN'T be a PrC. He's just going to be multi-classes and/or higher level.

But it sounds like you need to take the DMG's advice and tool the classes to be broader, and fit your needs. Maybe if you give us some specifics of what you want to accomplish (name of guild, guild ethos, guild goals) we can work up some imagination-sparking ideas.

 

[Umbran]

Actually, that's pretty much my complaint entirely. Prestige classes seem to force an organization into a pretty limited scope.

Just because the book says that PrCs tend to represent organizations does not mean that every member of the organization has that prestige class. Or that there may not be other prestige classes within the organization. A prestige classe may come from the organization, but it doesn't necessarily encompass the entire organization.

The best example is one Mr. Noah already gave - the Harpers from the Forgotten Realms. It's a biggish organization, and it has a number of prestige classes you can access if you're a member.

 

[BSF]

Actually, that's pretty much my complaint entirely. Prestige classes seem to force an organization into a pretty limited scope.

I've never felt that way though. Macbeth summarized my thoughts quite nicely. (Which shouldn't be a surprise since he plays in my Friday night game.) Bastion Press' Guildcraft is another nice alternative way to handle things. In fact, the two need not be exclusive and both are legitimate choices for my game. I also have organizations that have multiple PrC options. (High Knight of Pter and Herald of Pter come to mind.) Just decide what kind of organization you want to create, then decide if there should be one or more PrCs associated with it.

A 1 level PrC might be an interesting option, but I think I like Guildcraft's take on it better. Having certain feats only be available to certain organizations is cool. Or in your case, create a pseudo-race progression that mimics a Savage Species progression, or one of the Savage Progressions articles on the WotC site. There really isn't a right or wrong answer, there is just what you prefer. Just avoid getting too hung up on the idea that every member of an organization must be a specific PrC. It can work that way, but it doesn't need to.

BTW - I see you are in New Mexico. Heya!

 

[Timeboxer]

So you'd like some other kind of organization-related game mechanic, eh? Actually that sounds kind of interesting. I don't know that I'd do it with a class per se. Maybe with exclusive feats or something...

Hmm. How about Organization Substitution Levels?

 

[IcyCool]

Hmm. How about Organization Substitution Levels?

Wow, that sounds like a good idea. It lets all classes in, helps theme them just a bit, and leaves the Prestige Classes for the specially trained.

I like it.

 

[Psion]

Who's with me on this? We can start lobbying for the change when 4E eventually comes out. What really bothers me is that I often want to have a group organization share a prestige class. The problem? Prestige classes are way too narrow.

Chalk me down in the "not with you" column. Certainly, there is room to make some prestige classes broad, but AFAIAC, having a schtick is one of the central roles of prestige classes.

I don't beleive that one to one mapping of organization to prestige classes is important or helpful. Some organizations will have one, some will have more than one. Some will have none.

 

[Ranger REG]

What say you?

The only change I want is for the DMG to offer two prestige classes for every 1 core class (11 core classes total, therefore 22 prestige classes total).

Suggested examples...

Paladin's prestige class options: Blackguard (aka Anti-Paladin) and Cavalier
Rogue's prestige class options: Acrobat and Assassin
Cleric's prestige class options: Cloistered Adept and Militant Crusader
Druid's prestige class options: Blighter and Warden

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Hmm. How about Organization Substitution Levels?

Not a bad idea...

So you'd like some other kind of organization-related game mechanic, eh? Actually that sounds kind of interesting. I don't know that I'd do it with a class per se.

I was thinking about this not too long ago. Can't say that my thoughts wielded much results, but, in a word, what I'd like for a PrC to do is give benefits for making certain efforts, without penalizing a character for doing so (ie by losing a caster level, or a sneak attack die, or any other, class-specific feature).

I think the way I'd like it to be done is like a ritual of some sort. Spend a certain amount of XP, and gain a guild-related power (I think there are rituals in BoVD?). You don't have to wait for a particular level to gain the benefit, you don't lose class-related benefits (ie, you're still a full-time wizard, but you've spent some time and personal energy to learn the secrets of the Death Strike. You are a member of the Assassin's Guild, who all receive similar benefits, but don't have to be identical).

Perhaps there could be an initiation ritual, ie a first ritual to get into the guild / organization that doesn't offer much benefits, but you do it just so you can get better "perks" later (and to show that you're commited to the cause).

AR

 

[Timeboxer]

Wow, that sounds like a good idea. It lets all classes in, helps theme them just a bit, and leaves the Prestige Classes for the specially trained.

Well, admittedly you'd have to do one for every class, but since they're isolated levels rather than entire classes, then it makes things somewhat easier. Plus, you can give everyone some communal Harper ability or whatever across the board, and they'd just give up a bonus feat or a second-level spell or 1d6 Sneak Attack or something. Or you can give them variations on some idea, or perhaps different things entirely, appropriate to the class.

I'd probably also let people "swap" out past levels for organization substitution levels upon joining the organization. But not back, obviously.