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Show me your clerics!
- Thread starter Corsair
- Start date
nittanytbone
First Post
Elder-Basilisk said:
I disagree with this build for at least two reasons... It breaks two of my Commandmants of CoDzilla. (1) Do not lose caster levels unless it is for a very good reason and (2) Start with Wis 15+.
This cleric will not be able to cast his highest level spells "on time" due to low wisdom. He'll have wisdom of 19 by level 18. I don't think it wise to rely on Periapts of Wisdom to make your casting stat high enough to use your class function. Moroever, ending up with an odd-numbered stat is pretty sub-optimal.
Next, the barbarian level doesn't do much for you. I guess it gets you a few extra HP and proficiency with all martial weapons and rage. But Rage prevents you from using your nice buff spells. So that sucks. It also delays you another level from Divine Favor, which is your favorite buff ever. Melee clerics should be strong up to level 7, where they just explode. Why delay that until level 8?
Instead, just take the war domain with Kord. You'll never need anything other than a Greatsword in a melee build, I promise. With feats like Brutal Throw (throwing spears) or Intuitive Strike (use Wis to Hit with simple weapons), ranged attacks will not be a problem, and nothing beats a Greatsword for messing people up in melee range.
Other domains - The competition domain is good if your combat style requires opposed rolls (grappelling for example); Luck is good if you want to stay alive (reroll saves and such); Strength is good for massive damage. Contemplative levels can score you an easy extra domain later in your career if need be.
As a note, half-orcs make poor clerics. You get so few skill points as it is that dumping int that low is a real bummer -- clerics get good use out of skills such as Knowledge (Religion). Tanking Charisma means no turn undead and no divine metamagic and no divine feats.
Finally, I think you can do better on feats. Quicken Spell can't be used until quite high level, and then only for minor buffs like Divine Favor. DMM Quicken Spell is much more useful (or Divine Vigor, or Divine Might...). Cleave is most useful at lower levels. Most builds don't use it. If you've got the competition domain, why aren't you relying on a combat style that uses opposed rolls, like Improved Trip? Also, craft wondrous item is a good feat, but don't you have a wizard that gets those feats for free that you can team up with? Wouldn't you be better off with something like Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior)?
nittanytbone
First Post
Ahrimon said:
And hose your Turn Undead progression... If you're not using DMM (as the original poster stated) then you don't have anything else to use those turn attempts on, so you're wasting a major class function by multiclassing into something that progresses neither casting nor turn undead, IMHO.
nittanytbone said:
Does turning really matter after 8th level or so anyway?
Most undead at higher levels have a +4 Turn Resistance. This means that a straight Cleric with a Charisma bonus of +4 (and 5 ranks of Knowledge Religion) and the same level as the undead has a 25% chance of turning the undead.
Any Cleric who takes 6 levels of a Prestige Class (except for a few rare PrCs that advance turning ability) will never be able to turn a same level undead with a +4 Turn Resistance unless the Cleric also has a Phylactery of Undead Turning and that BoED shield/armor +2 bonus (I forget the name of it, Sacred or some such).
Even a straight Cleric who specializes on Turning (shy of some feat or magic item that boosts his turn level) with the Phylactery (+4) and the Shield (+2) would have a 0% chance of turning an undead (with +4 turn resistance) three levels higher than the Cleric. PrC Clerics really do not stand a chance.
GilaMonster
First Post
Here's a caster/healer cleric that I'm playing at the moment. Lots of fun.
Human Cleric 7
Weapon - quarterstaff
Extra Turning, Negotiator, Augment Healing, Sacred Healing (CD)
Domains: Planning, Protection
Skills: Diplomacy +14, Heal +14, Know (Rel) +12, Sense Motive +10, , Spellcraft +6
Going to be taking Divine Desciple from next level, then Contemplative later on.
Human Cleric 7
Weapon - quarterstaff
Extra Turning, Negotiator, Augment Healing, Sacred Healing (CD)
Domains: Planning, Protection
Skills: Diplomacy +14, Heal +14, Know (Rel) +12, Sense Motive +10, , Spellcraft +6
Going to be taking Divine Desciple from next level, then Contemplative later on.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Some good and some bad in these comments: Let's go through them:
While, if it were my character, I would have a wisdom 15, and a lower dex, I don't think that the lower wisdom is all that bad in this case.
A. With craft wondrous item, access to periapts of wisdom is pretty much guaranteed.
B. Ending up with an odd stat is not all that suboptimal.
b1. Inherent bonuses go up to +5. An odd statted character can get an extra +1 bonus out of that. An even statted character cannot.
b2. Without considering inherent bonuses, starting with an odd stat (and thus ending with an even stat) is advantageous at levels 4-7, 12-15, and 20. That's nine levels. Starting with an even stat (and thus ending with an odd stat is advantageous at levels 1-3, 8-11, and 16-19). That's eleven levels. Assuming an campaign from levels 1-20, I don't see how that is a disadvantage. [My specific reasoning for usually wanting a 15+ is so as to have bonus 3rd level spells at 5th level without a stat-boost item].
Having seen the character in action, I disagree with pretty much all of this. It is true that the barbarian level entails serious sacrifices, but it also does come with significant advantages.
Martial weapons are not the big selling point. Instead, Rage is the selling point. (And fast movement doesn't suck either). It is good for several reasons:
A. In general, a melee cleric will spend one round buffing and then go at it. More than that and you end up as a character who really kicks ass (the round after the last bad guy goes down), but did nothing useful during the fight. Thus the opportunity cost for rage isn't nearly as great as you seem to think. Round 1 cast your buff and move. Round 2, cast a quickened buff, rage, and full attack. That's generally good enough.
B. As alluded to in the previous reason, rage is a no-prep time buff. A battle cleric needs to be ready to go as soon as possible and can't afford more than one (or at most two) rounds of buffing. Rage adds to combat power but doesn't add to the prep time.
C. Rage seems to tip a lot of characters over an important break point in terms of power. These break points are something you observe a lot in the D&D minis game. A character with 65 hit points is light years tougher than a character with only 60 hit points. Why? Because any opponent dealing either 5, 10, 15, 20, or 30 points of damage per hit needs an extra hit in order to drop him. Similarly, a mini that deals 15 points of damage is much better than one that deals 10 points and dealing 30 points of damage is signficantly better than dealing 25 points of damage. The math just works out much better with that little bit extra. Rage is that kicker. If you convert it into Power Attack, it works out to 7 points of bonus damage with a two handed weapon and 5 points with a one-handed weapon. (although you probably won't convert it to Power Attack with a one-handed weapon). That's enough that the math starts to change quite significantly.
Kord doesn't have the war domain....
Well, when damage bonuses are high, a falchion is better against crittable foes, but in general I agree. On the other hand,
Well, as I said, there are a lot of sacrifices involved in the half-orc cleric. Having no skills to speak of is one of them. On the other hand, unless you do the persistent divine meta-magic (and I will never recommend that to anyone for the simple reason that it is so ridiculous as to make the game less fun), you're not likely to get the same raw damage output from charisma and divine feats as you will from strength.
Divine favor isn't really a minor buff. Like rage, it's a kicker that pushes you past attack and damage breakpoints. At high levels (15+) you can also quicken Divine Power. It's not as stupid good as DMM Persistent divine power, but it is very good within the confines of a game that is not pushing all of the mechanical boundaries.
Well, as a DM, I wouldn't allow Divine Meta-magic within five miles of my game so I'm not about to recommend it to other people. You're right, that Divine Meta-magic Quicken is more powerful than normal quicken spell (though you should note that it requires Quicken Spell).
As for Cleave, though, it retains its usefulness at high levels for this character (having seen the character in action). High level characters still find a lot of use for cleave if they are, like this character damage optimized. It also has very good synergy with Righteous Might since the increased damage and reach make Cleaves happen more often and put more foes within reach of them.
Not in the campaign this character is from. However, it's worth pointing out that if all players follow this school of character creation thought, the wizard won't have Craft Wondrous Item either. The bonus feats can, of course, be metamagic feats instead of crafting feats and the wizard is likely to just go straight to a prestige class after 5th level anyway and thus won't have a lot of bonus feats anyway.
For straight-up damage, maybe. On the other hand, tactical feats are not for the feat starved. Shock Trooper or Combat Brute really cost two feats since you need to take Improved Bull Rush and Improved Sunder (respectively) in order to get them.
nittanytbone said:
While, if it were my character, I would have a wisdom 15, and a lower dex, I don't think that the lower wisdom is all that bad in this case.
A. With craft wondrous item, access to periapts of wisdom is pretty much guaranteed.
B. Ending up with an odd stat is not all that suboptimal.
b1. Inherent bonuses go up to +5. An odd statted character can get an extra +1 bonus out of that. An even statted character cannot.
b2. Without considering inherent bonuses, starting with an odd stat (and thus ending with an even stat) is advantageous at levels 4-7, 12-15, and 20. That's nine levels. Starting with an even stat (and thus ending with an odd stat is advantageous at levels 1-3, 8-11, and 16-19). That's eleven levels. Assuming an campaign from levels 1-20, I don't see how that is a disadvantage. [My specific reasoning for usually wanting a 15+ is so as to have bonus 3rd level spells at 5th level without a stat-boost item].
Having seen the character in action, I disagree with pretty much all of this. It is true that the barbarian level entails serious sacrifices, but it also does come with significant advantages.
Martial weapons are not the big selling point. Instead, Rage is the selling point. (And fast movement doesn't suck either). It is good for several reasons:
A. In general, a melee cleric will spend one round buffing and then go at it. More than that and you end up as a character who really kicks ass (the round after the last bad guy goes down), but did nothing useful during the fight. Thus the opportunity cost for rage isn't nearly as great as you seem to think. Round 1 cast your buff and move. Round 2, cast a quickened buff, rage, and full attack. That's generally good enough.
B. As alluded to in the previous reason, rage is a no-prep time buff. A battle cleric needs to be ready to go as soon as possible and can't afford more than one (or at most two) rounds of buffing. Rage adds to combat power but doesn't add to the prep time.
C. Rage seems to tip a lot of characters over an important break point in terms of power. These break points are something you observe a lot in the D&D minis game. A character with 65 hit points is light years tougher than a character with only 60 hit points. Why? Because any opponent dealing either 5, 10, 15, 20, or 30 points of damage per hit needs an extra hit in order to drop him. Similarly, a mini that deals 15 points of damage is much better than one that deals 10 points and dealing 30 points of damage is signficantly better than dealing 25 points of damage. The math just works out much better with that little bit extra. Rage is that kicker. If you convert it into Power Attack, it works out to 7 points of bonus damage with a two handed weapon and 5 points with a one-handed weapon. (although you probably won't convert it to Power Attack with a one-handed weapon). That's enough that the math starts to change quite significantly.
Kord doesn't have the war domain....
Well, when damage bonuses are high, a falchion is better against crittable foes, but in general I agree. On the other hand,
Well, as I said, there are a lot of sacrifices involved in the half-orc cleric. Having no skills to speak of is one of them. On the other hand, unless you do the persistent divine meta-magic (and I will never recommend that to anyone for the simple reason that it is so ridiculous as to make the game less fun), you're not likely to get the same raw damage output from charisma and divine feats as you will from strength.
Divine favor isn't really a minor buff. Like rage, it's a kicker that pushes you past attack and damage breakpoints. At high levels (15+) you can also quicken Divine Power. It's not as stupid good as DMM Persistent divine power, but it is very good within the confines of a game that is not pushing all of the mechanical boundaries.
Well, as a DM, I wouldn't allow Divine Meta-magic within five miles of my game so I'm not about to recommend it to other people. You're right, that Divine Meta-magic Quicken is more powerful than normal quicken spell (though you should note that it requires Quicken Spell).
As for Cleave, though, it retains its usefulness at high levels for this character (having seen the character in action). High level characters still find a lot of use for cleave if they are, like this character damage optimized. It also has very good synergy with Righteous Might since the increased damage and reach make Cleaves happen more often and put more foes within reach of them.
Not in the campaign this character is from. However, it's worth pointing out that if all players follow this school of character creation thought, the wizard won't have Craft Wondrous Item either. The bonus feats can, of course, be metamagic feats instead of crafting feats and the wizard is likely to just go straight to a prestige class after 5th level anyway and thus won't have a lot of bonus feats anyway.
For straight-up damage, maybe. On the other hand, tactical feats are not for the feat starved. Shock Trooper or Combat Brute really cost two feats since you need to take Improved Bull Rush and Improved Sunder (respectively) in order to get them.
nittanytbone
First Post
*shrug* I'm just suggesting an optimized build. The Barb 1/Cleric X might work fine in a less potent game, but its still not "be all that you can be."
Basically, you're trading a level of spellcasting and any slim chance of turning undead you might have had for +4 str as a free action 1x/day (3x/day with Extra Rage, a feat).
Seems like a hefty trade to me. There are enough other free action buffs out there (DMM Quicken Spell; Some spells in the spell compendium; Divine Might) that do not require losing a caster level. Even delaying your access to higher level buffs (used in that one round you have to buff) is significant; would you prefer or Divine Might or Bull's Strength?
As far as combat brute/shock trooper... For a damage-output build, one of those two is almost as key as Power Attack, and they're both pretty easy to get into (few prereqs). I don't see why you'd pass one up if you wanted high damage output.
Basically, you're trading a level of spellcasting and any slim chance of turning undead you might have had for +4 str as a free action 1x/day (3x/day with Extra Rage, a feat).
Seems like a hefty trade to me. There are enough other free action buffs out there (DMM Quicken Spell; Some spells in the spell compendium; Divine Might) that do not require losing a caster level. Even delaying your access to higher level buffs (used in that one round you have to buff) is significant; would you prefer or Divine Might or Bull's Strength?
As far as combat brute/shock trooper... For a damage-output build, one of those two is almost as key as Power Attack, and they're both pretty easy to get into (few prereqs). I don't see why you'd pass one up if you wanted high damage output.
Combat Cleric
Here's a melee combat oriented exalted Cleric I played last year:
Clr 4/Church Inquisitor 4/Fist of Raziel 10/Heirophant 2
+17 BAB, 9th lvl divine spells (CL 19), great saves, amazing smiting abilities, Mastery of Energy and Divine Reach. Very effective melee combatant that can also Turn Undead and Cure from a distance.
Either way...just my 2 cp
Corsair said:
Here's a melee combat oriented exalted Cleric I played last year:
Clr 4/Church Inquisitor 4/Fist of Raziel 10/Heirophant 2
+17 BAB, 9th lvl divine spells (CL 19), great saves, amazing smiting abilities, Mastery of Energy and Divine Reach. Very effective melee combatant that can also Turn Undead and Cure from a distance.
Either way...just my 2 cp
Darklone
Registered User
YMMV. I agree with Elderbasilisk (about Rage being a kicker and the necessity of buffing without wasting another round). I've seen my share of Kord clerics and other dudes in action, but that bbn1/cleric kicked more ***. Taken into account that he was a gnome in melee and his stats were worse than the ones of the other melee clerics I've had at my table he simply rocked. And the one level of spellcasting...nittanytbone said:
Didn't matter. The char was on par with a sorcerer and good on his way to level 9 spells.
Simply said: Rage and one buff spell is fast and can be used in any fight. Most melee clerics though need two or three buffs to be better than your run of the mill fighter.
About Cleave: Cleave and Great Cleave depend on the type of game you run. If you play the typical D&D game with one or two big monsters against the whole group, these feats are useless.
If you play the type of game where the PC barbarian/cleric level 10-12 greatcleaves through the elite bodyguards (fighter level 8-10) of the BBEG like I do... YMMV.
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