Significance of Monsters Levels vs XP Value

[Blackeagle]

I see. So using the Excerpt on Zombies that was released...
The Gravehound is only a level 3 Brute worth 150xp.
The Corruption Corpse is only a level 4 Artillery worth 175XP.
The zombie minions go for 38XP each and are considered level 3.

A level 1 encounter with one Gravehound, one Corruption Corpse and 2 Zombie minions would total 401xp. Despite the XP count, this would probably be too difficult for a typically level 1 party?

It would probably be fine. Possibly a tough encounter to be sure, but unless the party was low on resources going in they would likely prevail.

If that's the case, its fine...I had just thought initially that there was more versatility. It's likely just like 3.x in the fact that you get a feel for what the party is capable of handling and then incorporate monsters accordingly. Which means stick to level 1 creatures for the most part at level one until you know what to do otherwise.

As others have said, you can pit characters against monsters about 5 levels higher or lower without messing things up too badly.

 

[Zinovia]

When considering the number of creatures you're throwing at the party, minions count differently. So replace one normal monster of that level with 2-3 minions (I don't know the actual number) . I think the encounters from some of the modules do this, so while they may have more than one creature per party member, some of them are minions. Or perhaps the encounters are deliberately designed to be challenging.

I'm hoping we don't get major inflation of what a typical encounter should be the way we had in 3E. A first level party can wipe the floor with a single orc, yet that was allegedly a CR1 encounter. They knew that was utterly broken going into 4E, so hopefully the new numbers work out right this time.

 

[Blackeagle]

When considering the number of creatures you're throwing at the party, minions count differently. So replace one normal monster of that level with 2-3 minions (I don't know the actual number) . I think the encounters from some of the modules do this, so while they may have more than one creature per party member, some of them are minions. Or perhaps the encounters are deliberately designed to be challenging.

The ratio is one standard to four minions.

 

[Mr Jack]

I'm hoping we don't get major inflation of what a typical encounter should be the way we had in 3E. A first level party can wipe the floor with a single orc, yet that was allegedly a CR1 encounter. They knew that was utterly broken going into 4E, so hopefully the new numbers work out right this time.

But that was what was supposed to happen. A 3e 'balanced encounter' uses up 20% of your resources, it isn't challenging. The idea being you get 4 encounters in a day and, taken as a whole, they're challenging.

 

[Celebrim]

When considering the number of creatures you're throwing at the party, minions count differently. So replace one normal monster of that level with 2-3 minions (I don't know the actual number).

As others have said, 4 minions are supposed to be equal in threat to one monster of the same level.

That isn't exactly true. Whether or not a horde of say 20 minions is as hard, harder, or easier than 5 non-minions of the same level depends alot on party composition. If you have alot of close blast and ranged area powers, then 20 minions will probably go down very quickly.

I'm hoping we don't get major inflation of what a typical encounter should be the way we had in 3E.

I'm sure that we will. The sample characters WotC has provided so far are for the most part not nearly optimized. It's probably easily possible to put together characters 10-30% more effective than the sample characters (depending on which one we are talking about), and with some thought to group synergy the party itself might be more effective than that. That means as system mastery spreads about those groups most likely to give feedback to WotC, there will be widespread recognition that for a party of level X, 5 monsters of level higher level are a more appropriate challenge.

And if you look, even for these non-optimized characters the party is being thrown at higher level challenges.

There is going to be some natural power inflation as more options become available and allow for greater and greater min/maxing. On top of that, there will likely be something broken WotC releases. They are almost certain to not recognize the essential factors in the power economy and overlook something. They've proven this with Magic the Gathering cards again and again.

A first level party can wipe the floor with a single orc, yet that was allegedly a CR1 encounter.

I believe two orc warriors was a EL 1 encounter. I don't think 4 1st level characters 'wipe the floor' with 2 orcs. If you throw 2 orcs at a party of 1st level characters four times in quick succession, you are going to be very lucky not to end up with dead PCs. This is especially true for 3.0 style great axe wielding orcs, but even 3.5 style falchion wielders are going to be scary.

That isn't to say that there weren't huge problems with the CR system.

 

[Blackeagle]

But that was what was supposed to happen. A 3e 'balanced encounter' uses up 20% of your resources, it isn't challenging. The idea being you get 4 encounters in a day and, taken as a whole, they're challenging.

Well, the fourth encounter is challenging. The first three are just resource management exercises. The problem is that most 3e resources were daily, so it was difficult to make a truly challenging encounter that didn't wipe the party out for the whole day (leading to the 15 minute adventuring day). It seems like a lot of the 4e mechanics (encounter powers, limited use of healing surges in each encounter, etc.) are designed to allow encounters to challenge a party, but not necessarily leave them wiped out for the day.

 

[Mr Jack]

Well, the fourth encounter is challenging. The first three are just resource management exercises. The problem is that most 3e resources were daily, so it was difficult to make a truly challenging encounter that didn't wipe the party out for the whole day (leading to the 15 minute adventuring day). It seems like a lot of the 4e mechanics (encounter powers, limited use of healing surges in each encounter, etc.) are designed to allow encounters to challenge a party, but not necessarily leave them wiped out for the day.

Indeed.

But my point was about power inflation, vs. an Orc (or 2, as pointed out) was not supposed to be a challenging fight. As it turn out that wasn't how a lot of people ended up playing and thus it didn't work out (although, IME, it worked fairly well when you did play by the book's format).

 

[Mengu]

And if you look, even for these non-optimized characters the party is being thrown at higher level challenges.

This is true. But I think there is an unspoken encounter balancing factor, written in the tactics for each opponent. When certain opponents don't join the fray until mid-encounter, this makes things easier for the characters.

Even from playtests, we've heard players were able to take on multiple encounters they were not supposed to fight at the same time, and have survived. It suddenly becomes more resource intensive (with action points and daily abilities flying around), but is managable, though very dangerous.

I think we may see more TPK's in 4th edition, than in 3rd edition, because in 3e, players could just keep throwing more resources at an encounter until they were utterly drained. At mid to high levels, they had virtually unlimited healing with spells, wands, and potions, HP's were designed to hold up for a long fight, and wizards could sling spell after spell till they were out, and then they still had wands with many charges to rely on.

In 4e, resources available during an encounter are a lot more limited. If the fight is prolonged for some reason after you've used up your per encounter abilities, you are in very deep trouble. The 7 more Healing surges you have but can't use aren't helping any. Items also merely give per encounter abilities, so they are not a reliable source you can use over and over.

This new design makes encounters much more interesting and thrilling, but at the same time may result in TPK if the players do something unexpected, triggering a second encounter in the middle of one encounter. I can see DM's sweating and fudging a bit to keep the players alive when they (inevitably) make such blunders.

Speaking of fudging, Minions open up a whole new door for fudging. In the middle of the encounter when things are going south for the players, and you notice two of the hobgoblin warriors are still untouched, you may decide they are minions, and no one will be the wiser.