Silence counterspell?

[Scion]

Silence is pretty much a dead slot versus a non-spellcasting opponent.

Silence has 'tons' of out-of-combat possibilities, plus 'tons' of in combat abilities. Even when ignoring its countering potential!

If the rival mage has Silent Metamagic he can bypass Silence with some spells. If I was a mage fearing Silence(who doesn't?) I'd prepare a Silent Summon Monster and let him deal with the annoyance,and focus my other spells on the opponents. If he is a sorcerer with Silent metamagic then Silence is pretty useless.

Sure, he can get around it, sortof. But, just in case, he will have to cast all of these spells that he wants to be sure about silenced. Which means that instead of casting summon monster X it is summon monster X-1. Since the highest level spell slots you have are generally the best, and once you start going down the line they start getting much less useful for several purposes, then after scaring the opponent once (and killing a spell) all of his spells from then on are much weaker. Much weaker.

Which means that all of his spells are either cast much weaker 'just in case' or he takes a chance to have his spells destroyed by a very low level spell. Sounds a bit off power doesnt it?

So along with a great deal of potential out and in of combat it is also a nearly perfect counterspell. Or, when the opponent has a way around it, the opponents spells are all cast much weaker (can only cast 3rd level spells? no fireball, time to chuck a 1st or 2nd level silenced spell instead. If you can honestly say that isnt a massive hit to power then I think you should go reread the spell section of the phb)

 

[Nightingale 7]

Let's see...By tons of out of combat possibilities,I guess you mean sneaking around flawlessly,silencing the guard while neutralizing him,perhaps silencing an obnoxious person who just won't shut the hell up.That's what I could think on a moments notice.A wide range of uses,I agree,but hardly tons.
About in-combat possibilities,for the life of me I can't think of one except the obvious "neutralize the casters".Ok perhaps the fighter can't shout to the cleric for healing,but I tend to believe that if the cleric sees the fighter riddled with wounds,he'll heal him.

So along with a great deal of potential out and in of combat it is also a nearly perfect counterspell. Or, when the opponent has a way around it, the opponents spells are all cast much weaker (can only cast 3rd level spells? no fireball, time to chuck a 1st or 2nd level silenced spell instead. If you can honestly say that isnt a massive hit to power then I think you should go reread the spell section of the phb)

I never said that Silence is not a big hit to the spellcasters.That is exactly what it is:a powerful spell,but only against spellcasters.Against any other opponent the spell is severely underpowered(OK,barring Destrachans).

Saying that Silence is a big hit on spellcasters is like saying that Fly is a big hit on melee-focused characters,or that Lower Spell Resistance is a big hit on Rakshashas and other big SR critters.They ARE,but Silence won't help you against a melee opponent,fly will be of no use against a bow specialist,and LSR will be useless against a tribe of orcs.They are powerful,yet limited spells,and none of them is overpowered.That is not to say that if you go against a known spellcaster you shouldn't stock up on Silences.Just that you won't have it memorized 24/7.

 

[two]

funny

This is one of those funny situation where spontaneous casters have a real advantage. Even a "lame" spellcaster like a bard, with silence chosen as a 2nd level spell, can take out a full caster "on the fly" during any given battle via readied "silence" spells. It's got enough in-combat and out of combat uses that it's a solid 2nd level choice, even for slot-limited classes like Sorcerers and bards. For players that fear enemy casters, it's a no-brainer.

Heck, even scrolls of silence will do the trick; duration and SR don't matter for the area, after all, ditto wand.

It's pretty powerful, really. If a party wants to stop enemey spellcasters, it's trivially easy to accomplish (via wands, bards, clerics, scrolls), and has a huge effect upon the game. Unless, you don't come up against any casters. Depends upon the campaign. But any defense that works best against the most powerful enemy type (high level casters, generally) is not to be ignored.

 

[Scion]

Since silence has lots of uses (I will state 'tons' again) both in and out of combat, PLUS can counter spells like no other. While still being one level less than dispel magic, which isnt a universal counter, something must be out of whack. If you disagree I dont understand why.

 

[reiella]

Since silence has lots of uses (I will state 'tons' again) both in and out of combat, PLUS can counter spells like no other. While still being one level less than dispel magic, which isnt a universal counter, something must be out of whack. If you disagree I dont understand why.

Hmm, I think in part, the argument is that it isn't an Universal Counter.
It can only counter one Silent spell, and that is Silence.

And even then it would have to be used in a different manner.

Although I happen to agree with the idea that a 2nd spell counters 'most' (all of the core spells) unless the target spellcaster has a specific feat is still a bit of questioned balance.

 

[Spatula]

Yes,but the other spells you use for counterspelling can also be used actively.You may use a fireball to counter the rival mage's fireball,OR to char the mage's minions,while Silence is pretty much a dead slot versus a non-spellcasting opponent.

So is a dispel magic, typically. Silence is also very useful for stealth missions, as noted above. But again, the problem is that silence, a 2nd level spell, is a better counterspell option than dispel magic, a 3rd level spell that's specifically presented as the generic counterspell. The silence always works, unless the spell being cast has no verbal component, which is very rare. Dispel requires a level check and places a cap on the counterer's roll. That the silence sticks around afterwards and has to be dealth with somehow (moving, dispelling, using Silent spells) is a bonus. The dispel doesn't do anything once you've taken your shot at counterspelling.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Someways around the problem of being silneced or getting silenced at all:
Metamagic Rod Silent Spell
Otiluke's Dispelling Screen and the Greater Version.
At higher levels the possibilities of [SP] abilities arise which are unaffected as are [SU] and [EX], as long as they are not sound-based. Has nothing to do with Spellcasting at all, but some high level Magic-Users might posses them as well, e.g. Archmages.
The Contigency spell will help as well, if placed for such a situation.

Silence is indeed powerful but I don't think that you have to change the spell to make it playable.

You can say Forcecage takes all who cannot remove it out of combat without Save or SR, it is higher in level for sure but even more powerful.

 

[Scion]

Metamagic Rod Silent Spell.

I dont want to have to give every npc spellcaster out there a rod of silent spell (or three) just to make up for this one rules problem.

Otiluke's Dispelling Screen and the Greater Version.

Where are these from? Bet the have a verbal component.

At higher levels the possibilities of [SP] abilities arise which are unaffected as are [SU] and [EX], as long as they are not sound-based. Has nothing to do with Spellcasting at all, but some high level Magic-Users might posses them as well, e.g. Archmages.

So the spell is more useful for destroying pc's than npc's? Even then, most creatures who have spellcasting capability still cast spells.

The Contigency spell will help as well, if placed for such a situation.

True, but then you could say that about pretty much anything. I remember when it was said about harm as well. So if harm is still a problem for you, and there is silence, and sometimes you want to use it for other things.. lots of choices, hard choices.. so this cant be a factor in helping it not be a 'problem'.

Silence is indeed powerful but I don't think that you have to change the spell to make it playable.

Between fixing and banning entirely I'd rather fix.

You can say Forcecage takes all who cannot remove it out of combat without Save or SR, it is higher in level for sure but even more powerful.

If you have to bring into play a 7th level spell! in order to prove that silence isnt overpowered then (when silence is only a 2nd level spell) then there is a communication problem somewhere


Hey, I know that the spell doesnt cause problems in every game. But I have seen it cause problems before. This is from a guy who has not, and still does not for that matter, had any problem with haste 3.0. It just never caused a problem. But there were spells that were problems, like heal and harm, and silence is up there with the same broad sweeping destructive power, although it takes a little bit more thinking to get it into those positions. But then it is also 4 levels lower.

Again, I'd rather change it than increase its level. Currently it is one of those sleeper broken spells. It wont always come up, but it is always lurking there waiting to help destroy some game.

Grappling character or tanglefoot bag on either side will simply be able to destroy any spellcaster. Not necissarily a good or bad thing, but definately too strong for such a low level tactic. With the 20% spell failure chance instead it moves it back into a proper power level, at least imo.

 

[Philip]

Silence is powerful against spellcasters, but there are few powerful enemy spellcasters that live for more than a couple of rounds anyway.

In my experience, powerful spellcasters are the primary target for all the PCs efforts. If they are not (temporarily) disabled by a Silence, they will be grappled by Evard's Black Tentacles, caught in Web spells, blasted by damage spells (with Ref saves for Clerics, Fort or Ref for wizards), ranged attacks, grappled physically, their line of sight and/or effect obsctructed by various wall spells of fog-like spells. They never last long unless VERY WELL prepared (which includes counters against Silence).

And don't forget, readying a defensive spell has the potential of you doing nothing for an entire round. You are always one step behind the enemy. It has happened plenty times for me to ready a silence vs. an enemy spellcaster when that enemy suddenly draws a wand and blasts away or uses a magic item. Precious action gone and nothing prevented!

If I think a fireball from my PC can kill the enemy spellcaster (and some of his minions too) I don't stall him with a silence but I hit him with the fireball!

 

[Scion]

draws a wand

silence stops wand use.