Silly thought on Monks

[RUMBLETiGER]

In the core trio, PrCs appear in the DMG - the book that only the DM is supposed to look inside, remember?
There's a reason why the DMG is a separate book, you know.
(just to be clear, I'm talking about 3.5e)
Back in the late 80s, the days of the boxed sets, the days before the internet, if something was in the DMG and the DM didn't talk about it - it didn't exist.

Then how would a player know if he's selecting the right feats etc. to qualify if he can't peek at them in advance? I mean, who takes Dodge on purpose?

So, how many good unarmed combat specialised classes are there?

The honest truth is that D&D doesn't handle unarmed combat particularly well.

Totemist. As I've been learning in this past week.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm not sure I'd count the totemist any more an unarmed combatant than a Sorcerer with a bunch of touch spells.

 

[Dandu]

How could we forget about Fistbeard Beardfist?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Not everyone has heard of his legend...

 

[nonsi256]

What problem does banning PrCs solve again?

Using the core classes - none.
But this discussion is about improving the Monk.
The PrCs in the DMG at least make you trade something for what you gain - from level 1. As things stand now, there are too many PrCs that grant benefits without making you give up on anything in return, which makes their selection a no-brainer and just emphasizes how badly designed a given base class is.

My usual is mixing a Dex/Wis/Con Monk with PsyWar or some kind of arcanist, the Lucid Cenobite or Kensai PrCl, and adding a polearm.

Which just emphasizes this topic.
A decent base class should stand on it own and have enough worthwhile features in each level that exiting to another class would make you lose something that you'll miss, and not just be viable as a jigsaw piece.

Then how would a player know if he's selecting the right feats etc. to qualify if he can't peek at them in advance? I mean, who takes Dodge on purpose?

You see, that's another problem I have with many PrCs - WotC just presented them to justify lousy feats.
In the age of the web, hiding PrC details from a player is not really an option.
However, in my view, a player should focus on what kind of character s/he'd like to role. The DM should offer several progression choices to make the player's vision come to life. Only after several levels have passed should the DM make PrCs available - if it's truly necessary for the type of character the player envisions. And when the need arises - retraining should be allowed.

Anyway, my main point (again) is that a base class should stand on it own.
A PrC, in my view, is about making a direction change, not just amassing MOAR POWAH

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Which just emphasizes this topic.

Actually, no it doesn't.

What I'm doing in each case is getting access to the other base class' ability to boost the Monk's size, thereby increasing reach, and thus increasing the efficacy of a build that works by taking advantage of having lots of AoOs. IOW, I'm capitalizing on a synergy that doesn't exist in anyone's "improved" monk design.

And, like other good PrCls, those in particular add things that are not available within a single base class.

 

[Ashtagon]

What problem does banning PrCs solve again?

DM migraines.

 

[Drowbane]

You need Wis to attack and to damage.

Oriental Adventures - Shiba Protector PrC, level 1 dip.

Something I have often taken for my Cleric and Druid characters in the past. Oh, and the occasional Monk.

edit: you people need to stay the hell away from my PrCs!

 

[nonsi256]

Actually, no it doesn't.

What I'm doing in each case is getting access to the other base class' ability to boost the Monk's size, thereby increasing reach, and thus increasing the efficacy of a build that works by taking advantage of having lots of AoOs. IOW, I'm capitalizing on a synergy that doesn't exist in anyone's "improved" monk design.

And, like other good PrCls, those in particular add things that are not available within a single base class.

Using a PrC to make a character vision come to life is ok.
The problem is that WITHOUT using PrCs, all melees - and the Monk in particular - are next to useless at mid-high levels. You need PrCs not for creating the character you envision for yourself, but to be viable to begin with.

 

[Drowbane]

Using a PrC to make a character vision come to life is ok.
The problem is that WITHOUT using PrCs, all melees - and the Monk in particular - are next to useless at mid-high levels. You need PrCs not for creating the character you envision for yourself, but to be viable to begin with.

Define "viable".

A Monk 20 can be pretty effective against CR Appropriate Monsters, especially given an intelligently selected set of magic items. But a [insert Class X / Class Y / Class N / Class O, where X+Y+N+O = 20] can do it better (lets not even mention that a Wizard 9+ can probably outshine that same Monk 20 ).

Monk 20 is "viable" (whatever that means in this context), but Monk 9 / Shiba Protector 1 / Drunk Monk 10 is perhaps more enjoyable. Perhaps not.