D&D 5E Simulation vs Game - Where should D&D 5e aim?

You are missing the point. If the pc's fail, can they try something else? Or will every plan fail? Because that's what Ahn is advocating. The DM straight up deciding beforehand that nothing the players attempt can ever succeed.
No, it isn't. Unless the entirety of the game world is one throne room and the area around it, and the only meaningful imperative is to get inside it and have a chat.

billd91 said:
Some plans simply won't work.
I'd say a lot of plans simply won't work. Hopefully, the players avoid most of the obvious ones, but there are rules for a reason.
 

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I'd say a lot of plans simply won't work. Hopefully, the players avoid most of the obvious ones, but there are rules for a reason.

The suspicion that statements like this inspire is because unfortunately there are DMs out there who aren't acting in good faith, just as there are players who aren't acting in good faith. In the early days I think DMs had to do a lot of crowd control of the latter, and the default of "if in doubt say no" came from a combination of response to ludicrous requests and adversarial DMing.

I'm a lot more choosey about who I play with nowadays, and see very little crowd control. IMO it's not good DMing to keep saying "no" to players acting in good faith, it sends the wrong message. IMO It's mostly players flailing around in the dark who attempt the ludicrous, either in ignorance or a sense of despair.

The more opaque the DM's rulings are, the more hidden backstory locks the game down , the harder it is for players to discern what plans are viable and what aren't. I've seen situations where the lack of feedback from the DM renders player decisions essentially random, creating immense frustration. This can cause some players seeking entertainment out of the game in other ways, and acting out, leading to a vicious spiral of frustrated deprotagonised players and an angry frustrated DM.

My solution to such problems is to try and nip them in the bud. If the players concoct a plan that isn't viable, let them know that before they waste the whole session on it, and try and impart at least some of the information why that is the case.

Also, most players nowadays have more experience of various RPGs and are more open to making the game more of a collaborative process than an adversarial one. The players aren't the enemy and treating them like the enemy isn't appropriate in most games IMO.

Different groups have different tastes, and different levels of tolerance for setbacks and red herrings. It is possible to break a group, damage their morale so badly the group splits up. I've seen it happen, and think that if a DM sees the possibility beforehand they should try to prevent it.
 
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/snip

Not that fun is bad, but I think that something as vague and as downstream as that is a pretty tough end to meet without having some more concrete process and goals leading up to it.

Beyond that, though, I never really saw fun as the goal; maybe a goal, but not an inherent one or the most important. The phrase "Tyranny of Fun" comes to mind. Roleplaying is about an experience. If the characters are doing something fun, the game should be fun. If they're doing something that's not fun, I'm at a bit of a loss as to why the players should be yukking it up in the background. Most of the fiction that inspires D&D fiction isn't much fun. LotR certainly isn't. Nor is Lovecraft. Conan, maybe.

Again, this is a big divide in how we view the game. If it's not fun, I don't want to do it. End of story. I'm at a loss why players should ever be doing something they don't enjoy (as in "not fun"). The idea that I'm there for the "experience" is probably true for some value of truth, but, if the experience isn't fun, it's probably frustrating and not enjoyable. I know there are people out there who talk about playing the game as some sort of character building exercise, where the players have to "earn" their enjoyment. I'm not interested in those games anymore.
 

You are missing the point. If the pc's fail, can they try something else? Or will every plan fail? Because that's what Ahn is advocating. The DM straight up deciding beforehand that nothing the players attempt can ever succeed.

Fortunately, I didn't have to refute this because Ahn already did. But this right here strikes me as the bad faith in this discussion. He never said nothing the players attempt can ever succeed. He closed off one thing as far as I can tell - using diplomacy to get an appointment with the king. And here you go blowing it far beyond what he ever said to try to make your points.
 

The suspicion that statements like this inspire is because unfortunately there are DMs out there who aren't acting in good faith, just as there are players who aren't acting in good faith. In the early days I think DMs had to do a lot of crowd control of the latter, and the default of "if in doubt say no" came from a combination of response to ludicrous requests and adversarial DMing.
One thing I learned from some players was that if I don't say no authoritatively and frequently, they'll behave like rampaging psychopaths (their characters will too). Part of it is about in-game considerations, but part of it is also establishing who's in charge. It's very important that the players understand that.

I'm a lot more choosey about who I play with nowadays, and see very little crowd control.
So am I, and as a consequence there's a lot more concordance between mine and my players' opinions and a lot fewer no answers. That's a luxury, though.

The more opaque the DM's rulings are, the more hidden backstory locks the game down , the harder it is for players to discern what plans are viable and what aren't. I've seen situations where the lack of feedback from the DM renders player decisions essentially random, creating immense frustration. This can cause some players seeking entertainment out of the game in other ways, and acting out, leading to a vicious spiral of frustrated deprotagonised players and an angry frustrated DM.
Sure, but hidden backstory is also essential. If the players don't get the sense that there's a real world out there somewhere, if they get the sense that they're being spoon-fed a specific scenario as opposed to participating in a dynamic living world, they're likely to get bored and quit.

This game is played in the imagination. I think it's very important that there are parts of the game that are not explicitly stated, yet which produce objective consequences. Indeed, I sometimes write down a few themes or have some in-world phenomena in mind before I campaign which I know are important but which I have no intention of disclosing whatsoever. Typically, they'll find out after the game.

It is a real issue when the players become frustrated by a sense of irrelevance, but in my experience the solution to that is simply trust. Sometimes you should feel that way, as most heroes do.

And again, this is an idea that I think is very strongly rooted specifically in fantasy fiction. Every episode of Game of Thrones I watch hammers into your head how the world is bigger than what's oncreen, and things matter that happen offscreen. There's an enormous amount of hidden backstory. And of course Tolkien was the king of hidden backstory.

Roleplaying is a different medium, but I think the idea of hidden backstory translates very well. Have a few details that the players don't know, and then they start thinking, and fleshing out innumerable other aspects of the world in their own heads. The power of imagination is much more important than the power of game rules.

My solution to such problems is to try and nip them in the bud. If the players concoct a plan that isn't viable, let them know that before they waste the whole session on it, and try and impart at least some of the information why that is the case.
In general, that's probably wise. One of the benefits of being a DM is you know an innumerable number of things the players don't. In world, most D&D characters are exceptional and intelligent. There's every reason to believe that they would intuitively know a lot of useful things. I spend a lot of time trying to impart that wisdom to players without spoon-feeding them.

There's a fairly interesting bit in the DMGII about whether if a player says he opens a door and walks into a room, and (unbeknownst to him) there is a pit behind the door, whether the character should walk into the pit and fall, because the player said so, or if the DM should intervene in the name of having the character behave rationally because the player said something unknowingly but the character is not that dumb. I fall firmly on the side of intervention, of telling the players what their characters would know and letting them make the most informed and in-character decisions possible.

Also, most players nowadays have more experience of various RPGs and are more open to making the game more of a collaborative process than an adversarial one. The players aren't the enemy and treating them like the enemy isn't appropriate in most games IMO.
To me, adversarial DMing is the old school. I haven't seen it done in a while and I never saw it done particularly well (and I'm very heavily collaborative), but I imagine there's some great experiences to be had with that mentality.

Fortunately, I didn't have to refute this because Ahn already did. But this right here strikes me as the bad faith in this discussion. He never said nothing the players attempt can ever succeed. He closed off one thing as far as I can tell - using diplomacy to get an appointment with the king. And here you go blowing it far beyond what he ever said to try to make your points.
There's probably another jargon barrier here, but in this scenario, the outcome of the game is not being determined, merely the outcome of one fairly trivial action. Besides being an entirely reasonable phenomenon, the refusal of royal servants to talk to strangers does not subvert the player's fundamental goals unless they signed up to play a game where the only goal is talking to the king.
 

Again, this is a big divide in how we view the game. If it's not fun, I don't want to do it. End of story.
That's another expectation that sounds unrealistic to me. I cannot think of any games or other hobbies or recreational activities that are constantly fun. They have peaks and valleys, and the dynamic between the fun parts and the not so fun parts is part of what keeps people coming back.

And frankly, most of the really in-depth hobbies have a very low ratio of fun to time and effort spent. A lot of them are pretty miserable drudgery, or they pound failure into your head over and over again. D&D seems relatively fun-obsessed to me compared with other hobbies I've been involved in.
 

I'm reminded of the first book I read cover to cover in my tenure within this hobby (the one that was given to me by my cousin who I graciously credit as involving me in a love I probably wouldn't have found without him); Gygax's 1979 DMG. While my tastes have changed, there are certain GMing principles and D&D (specific) theory within that book that I still hold as paramount at my home table. And certain passages certainly left a mark on my memory, playstyle and expectations. Pertinent to this thread:

Introduction, p9

Material included was written with an eye towards playability and expedition. The fun of the game is action ond drama. The challenge of problem solving is secondary. Long and drawn out operations by the referee irritate the players. More ”realistic” combat systems could certainly have been included here, but they have no real part in a game for a group of players having an exciting adventure. If you will do your best to keep the excitement level of your games at a peak, you will be doing yourself and your participants a favor which will be evident when players keep coming back for more.

and on

Approaches to playing AD&D, p9

A few brief words are necessary to insure that the reader has actually obtained a game form which he or she desires. Of the two approaches to hobby games today, one is best defined as the realism-simulation school and the other as the game school. AD&D is assuredly on adherent of the latter school. It does not stress any realism (in the author’s opinion an absurd effort at best considering the topic!). It does little to attempt to simulate anything either. ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek to use imagination and creativity. This is not to say that where it does not interfere with the flow of the game that the highest degree of realism hasn‘t been attempted, but neither is a serious approach to play discouraged. In all cases, however, the reader should understand that AD&D is designed to be an amusing and diverting pastime, something which can fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participants desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously. For fun, excitement, and captivating fantasy, AD&D is unsurpassed. As a realistic simulation of things from the realm of make-believe, or even as a reflection of medieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only a dismal failure. Readers who seek the latter must search elsewhere. Those who desire to create and populate imaginary worlds with larger-than-life heroes and villains, who seek relaxation with a fascinating game, and who generally believe games should be fun, not work, will hopefully find this system to their taste.

I remember approaching my cousin about the prospect of playing gritty Bladerunner type sci-fi or even Star Wars space opera genre stuff by hacking the AD&D system and being scoffed at and roundly rebuffed by he and his veteran crew. Classic Traveler was broken out.
 

Fortunately, I didn't have to refute this because Ahn already did. But this right here strikes me as the bad faith in this discussion. He never said nothing the players attempt can ever succeed. He closed off one thing as far as I can tell - using diplomacy to get an appointment with the king. And here you go blowing it far beyond what he ever said to try to make your points.

Unfortunately, Ahn is continuing an old conversation. There was the diplomacy attempt, followed by possibly a charm attempt, higher level magic attempt, bribery attempt, and several other options, every one of which were stonewalled and declared automatic failures.
 

That's another expectation that sounds unrealistic to me. I cannot think of any games or other hobbies or recreational activities that are constantly fun. They have peaks and valleys, and the dynamic between the fun parts and the not so fun parts is part of what keeps people coming back.

And frankly, most of the really in-depth hobbies have a very low ratio of fun to time and effort spent. A lot of them are pretty miserable drudgery, or they pound failure into your head over and over again. D&D seems relatively fun-obsessed to me compared with other hobbies I've been involved in.

Bet you're barrels of laughs at the table. :uhoh: Sorry, I don't have any hobbies that I would describe that way. There's a reason I refused to get into MMO's - exactly that drudgery. Again, not interested.
 

Bet you're barrels of laughs at the table.
You'd be surprised.

Sorry, I don't have any hobbies that I would describe that way.
Most people do though. For anything athletic, you work your butt off, do whatever some coach tells you, and then probably lose at some point. For strategy games, it becomes a second job learning what the strategy is. Collecting magic cards, building model trains, gaming conventions...
I don't know what other word than "drudgery" I would use. People behave very strangely when it comes to their hobbies.

Unfortunately, Ahn is continuing an old conversation. There was the diplomacy attempt, followed by possibly a charm attempt, higher level magic attempt, bribery attempt, and several other options, every one of which were stonewalled and declared automatic failures.
Yes, every attempt to manipulate/break the rules and force an unreasonable outcome was indeed stonewalled. If you were an actual player in this game, you might have to accept that (gasp!) your plan to use charm magic on royalty was DOA. Welcome to D&D.
 

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