Single-spell Caster & a Feat-based Class

[Elon Tusk]

I had been working on a single-spell caster or Cynosure (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SyHz8NGgW).
The hardest part was deciding what level(s) of spell he could choose. 1st level spells would be worthless by 20th level and a Wish spell can't be easily nerved for a 1st level caster.
What do you think of the compromise?

The idea of such a specialized class led me to begin wondering what the most flexible class was, as an opposite.

The ideas of feats being a way to make classes more flexible led to me creating the Protean (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/S1QklHTulb) who gains feats instead of class features.

How do feats stack up with class features? Obviously they can add flexibility, but is the lack of power (especially when it comes to extra attacks and high-level spells) too much of a drawback?

 

[Phazonfish]

These look like fun class ideas in the event you can actually balance them. I've only skimmed so far, but here are a couple of observations:

• Definitely add multiclass restrictions, because extra feats seems a bit too exploitable, but feats alone probably doesn't give a character enough to work with.
• The feat class should have one of its save proficiencies replaced. A class is supposed to have 1 strong prof (dex, wis, con) and 1 weak (str, cha, int). It currently has 2 strong saves.
• Increasing your save DC is an incredibly potent ability, you should definitely delay its availability. For contrast, only the Theurgist and the Lore Master get a feature that increases DC, with the Theurgist only getting it once a day while the Lore Master is considered infamously overpowered.

Good luck and don't give up.

Edit: I just realized that since the cynosure has to use Improved Singular Power to cast as if at a higher slot and since Improved Singular Power can only apply the same effect once, that means the class that specializes in once spell can't improve upon the spell in a way that literally everyone else capable of casting it can. That should probably be changed.

 

[Elon Tusk]

These look like fun class ideas in the event you can actually balance them.

Thanks

Definitely add multiclass restrictions, because extra feats seems a bit too exploitable, but feats alone probably doesn't give a character enough to work with.

Yeah. We don't multi-class in our games so I hardly consider that. These would be like the UA stuff - untested with multi-classing. I'll make that explicit.

The feat class should have one of its save proficiencies replaced. A class is supposed to have 1 strong prof (dex, wis, con) and 1 weak (str, cha, int). It currently has 2 strong saves.

I never noticed that; I had Dex and Int at first anyway.

Increasing your save DC is an incredibly potent ability, you should definitely delay its availability. For contrast, only the Theurgist and the Lore Master get a feature that increases DC, with the Theurgist only getting it once a day while the Lore Master is considered infamously overpowered.

I moved it from 2nd level to 6th.

I just realized that since the cynosure has to use Improved Singular Power to cast as if at a higher slot and since Improved Singular Power can only apply the same effect once, that means the class that specializes in once spell can't improve upon the spell in a way that literally everyone else capable of casting it can. That should probably be changed.

Good catch. I had corrected that in a draft after posting it above.

Thanks for taking the time to look these over.

 

[Phazonfish]

I read them over a couple more times, but don't have much more to add.
If it doesn't clash too much with the theme of the class, I would consider giving the Cynosure a couple of spells other than their specialized spell, to give them a little flexibility. Maybe just 2-3 cantrips & 2-3 1st level or above spells, not gaining more spells at higher levels, but able to retrain them when they level similar to sorcerers/bards/warlocks. A player who wants to play along with the theme could even choose spells that seem like extensions of their singular spell; for instance if your singular spell is wall of force, you could take Ottoluke's Resilient Sphere and Forcecage when you reach the appropriate levels, or if your singular spell is Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum, you could take Rope Trick, Leomund's Tiny Hut, and Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion as their non-singular spells (No, I'm not sure why you would take campsite spells as your specialty). I think the main reason to include such options is that if your singular spell is a utility spell, you don't want to feel useless in combat; maybe a picked a divination spell as my singular spell, so it would be nice to be able to still cast Firebolt in combat. I would consider making these side spells less efficient to use though, like giving them a higher spell charge cost. In the end, if you decide the class shouldn't have extra spells from the class, a character could still probably get by with spells from feats.

I do have a couple of questions though. What kind of builds did you anticipate players to make of the Protean?

Also, one option of Singular Power is "substitute spell concentration damage save DC to your Intelligence score or half the damage you take, whichever is higher." I'm afraid I don't understand what this means, could you explain it a different way?

 

[Yunru]

*coughspellsoulcough*
Protean just doesn't work I'm afraid. There's no feature like Extra Attack or the higher level spell casters... unless you make one of course.

 

[bganon]

Cynosure can cast Animate Objects 1/day at level 1, 2/day at level 2, 4/day at level 3, 9/day (!) at level 5, etc...

Works with any 5th-level spell. At 5th level you have 30 charges/day, regain 8 per short rest (so typically 46 charges/day), and the 5th level spell costs 5 charges at level 5. That's far better than any other caster, so it needs some serious rebalancing.

 

[Elon Tusk]

If it doesn't clash too much with the theme of the class, I would consider giving the Cynosure a couple of spells other than their specialized spell, to give them a little flexibility. Maybe just 2-3 cantrips & 2-3 1st level or above spells, not gaining more spells at higher levels, but able to retrain them when they level similar to sorcerers/bards/warlocks. A player who wants to play along with the theme could even choose spells that seem like extensions of their singular spell; for instance if your singular spell is wall of force, you could take Ottoluke's Resilient Sphere and Forcecage when you reach the appropriate levels...I think the main reason to include such options is that if your singular spell is a utility spell, you don't want to feel useless in combat; maybe a picked a divination spell as my singular spell, so it would be nice to be able to still cast Firebolt in combat. I would consider making these side spells less efficient to use though, like giving them a higher spell charge cost. In the end, if you decide the class shouldn't have extra spells from the class, a character could still probably get by with spells from feats.

I really wanted to find a way to have a first level spell increase organically level by level, either by making specific improvements upon it or by jumping it to a related spell of the next higher level. But, the task of specifically improving a spell likely would be too much of a burden to place on a player and DM, and I could find no clear way to categorize existing spells as they increase in levels.

Yes, the feat spells (as well as racial spells or weapon proficiencies) were a compromise I had in mind that could add some utility.

A player who felt the need for this utility could play as:
- a high elf for Elf Weapon Training & a cantrip (or similarly a drow),
- a variant human to gain spell or weapon feats,
- a dragon born for breath weapon,
- tieifling with Infernal Legacy (or Barbed Hide),
- natural weapons of a lizard folk or tabaxi
- a hobgoblin's Martial Training
- Yuan-ti's Poison Spray and Suggestion

I do have a couple of questions though. What kind of builds did you anticipate players to make of the Protean?

Honestly, I haven't played other of these yet. I have been working on alternative classes, seeing what direction they could go so these have their genesis from thought experiments. What would a spell specialist look like? Then the Protean came from the opposite approach: what would a character with super utility look like? I thought about a Protean having signature features from various classes such as Sneak Attack, Rage, Action Surge, etc. But then I decided that feats were a much easier and less toe-stepping solution.

One thing I am working on for the Protean is a temporary or ad hoc Feat at level 2, maybe he gets to select a feat for 1 minute per short rest. It makes him much more versatile. I guess it would have to be magical otherwise why would he forget the feat. This would allow the feat selection to be situational.

Also, one option of Singular Power is "substitute spell concentration damage save DC to your Intelligence score or half the damage you take, whichever is higher." I'm afraid I don't understand what this means, could you explain it a different way?

This is what I meant to substitute your Intelligence score for the normal DC 10 for Taking Damage on holding concentration, but now I realize that's not balanced. Perhaps it should say: "add your Intelligence modifier to your Constitution saving throw to hold Concentration."


I appreciate your time.

 

[Elon Tusk]

Cynosure can cast Animate Objects 1/day at level 1, 2/day at level 2, 4/day at level 3, 9/day (!) at level 5, etc...

Works with any 5th-level spell. At 5th level you have 30 charges/day, regain 8 per short rest (so typically 46 charges/day), and the 5th level spell costs 5 charges at level 5. That's far better than any other caster, so it needs some serious rebalancing.

Agreed, this is a difficult balancing act. And, yes, Animate Objects is an obstacle I am still working on.
The singular spell can be cast more often but at the cost of any other spells, including cantrips.
The Cynosure lacks almost all variety/utility.

So if you are talking balance, you'd need to compare the variety of spells available for a 5th level Wizard (1st-3rd) for a total of 9 spell slots/day to meet a given situation compared to the 9 uses of a Cynosure's locked-in 5th level spell that can only be used situationally.
Plus the wizard gets Arcane Recovery, bonus magic from his Arcane Tradition feature, and an infinite supply of 4 different cantrips.

 

[Elon Tusk]

*coughspellsoulcough*
Protean just doesn't work I'm afraid. There's no feature like Extra Attack or the higher level spell casters... unless you make one of course.

I hadn't seen your Spellsoul. Cynosure had its origin in an older thread brainstorming additional class ideas which mentioned single-spellcaster (as derived from With a Single Spell).

The potency for feats for a Protean isn't supposed to be as strong as class features such as Extra Attack, Sneak Attack, Rage, Smite, high level spells, etc. The balance comes in the variety/utility.
And some feats do add things similar to those such as Crossbow Expert, GWM, and Sharp Shooter.

At 1st level, a Protean (human variant or any race with spell-casting) can cast Eldritch bolts.
At 2nd level they could cast it from 240 feet away ignoring 1/2 and 3/4 cover.

As mentioned above, I'm working on a Temporary Feat feature:
"One thing I am working on for the Protean is a temporary or ad hoc Feat at level 2, maybe he gets to select a feat for 1 minute per short rest. It makes him much more versatile. I guess it would have to be magical otherwise why would he forget the feat. This would allow the feat selection to be much more situational."

 

[Phazonfish]

A couple new observations.

In light of bganon's comment, I think removing the Cynosure's Singular Recovery feature may be wise. If your S. Spell is high level, more spell charges only highlights that you have such a powerful option so early; if you S. Spell is low level, you already have enough spell charges to cast it as often as you need as long as you aren't being too wasteful.

I really wanted to find a way to have a first level spell increase organically level by level, either by making specific improvements upon it or by jumping it to a related spell of the next higher level. But, the task of specifically improving a spell likely would be too much of a burden to place on a player and DM, and I could find no clear way to categorize existing spells as they increase in levels.

I agree, even if a way to write rules for a class to do so, it would be very complex, which 5e design is really against. But if they had the opportunity to get a couple other spells you could at least select your spells in a way so as to pretend that is what your character is doing.

It also occurs to me that neither of these classes have subclasses. I feel like there could be potential there. Perhaps the Cynosure could be divided into a subclass that truly only has one spell and has more power to improve it, while the other has a handful of other spells like I have been pulling for. Perhaps the Protean could have subclasses based on what types of builds could be expected: One focused on martial combat, one focused on magic, and one focused on skills. As Yunru pointed out the Protean lacks any of the at-will damage increasing features that most classes have, perhaps you could give it features based on the archetype chosen: Extra Attack(1) at 5th and an ability that gives you an extra die of weapon damage somewhere between 11th and 14th if you chose the martial combat subclass, features that improve your attack cantrips in a manner similar to the Warlock's eldritch blast centered invocations if you chose the magic subclass, and defensive features (in place of damaging features) like the rogues evasion and uncanny dodge if you chose the skill based subclass.

On a separate note, I went through all spells of level 1 to 5 with a casting time of longer than 1 action, and none of them seem like they really break if you could cast them as an action, so I would consider allowing the Cynosure to cast their S. Spell as an action without having to spend additional spell charges on it, as it doesn't seem fun to be stuck in combat unable to cast your one spell because it takes too long.

In any case, I'm just throwing out any idea that comes to mind, so feel free to disregard them if they don't interest you.

Keep up the good work.