D&D 5E Skill Challenges in 5E

My concern is not on how to educate gamemasters, it is on writing rules so as to make the most out of whatever skills the gamemaster has. Two drivers of equal skill in two different cars, one of them will still drive better in a car with better handling - this is what I am after, rules that make it easier to excel.

While I understand that is your more broad concern (and a legitimate one in any endeavor), I was honing on the more specific concern outlined below with respect to GM experience and acuity leading to a more provocative, functional Skill Challenge.

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Originally Posted by Starfox
The problem I was trying to focus on is that it becomes harder to narrate a series of events if you make that series very long, as skill challenges tend to do. Many rolls -> many narrative steps - > small progress in each step -> hard to narrate. If you are better at narrating this problem will kick in later, if you are worse, it will kick in sooner. For each of us there is a limit on how long a progression of events can be before we run into repetition narrating it. A GM with little imagination will have that "one rock, another rock" approach" I used above and run out of steam quickly. A better GM can run a long skill challenge without becoming repetitive. The more skill and familiarity with the situation you have, the more variety you can add, but there is always a limit. The trick is to keep the resolution mechanic long enough to be an interesting challenge yet short enough not to lose narrative tension.

And I was then noting that, yes, while is true, the same contention/concern holds sway over the execution of every other element of GMing. Providing non-challenging conflicts is poor GMing. Framing/presenting content completely decoupled from players' overt signals is poor GMing, being paralyzed and unable to improvise when players do something well off the grid of your expectations is poor GMing, misrepresenting real-world phenomena that is supposed to be derivative of real-world phenomena (and not rendered askew due to "but magic" or high fantasy) such that your players have no fundamental basis for engagement (primarily engineering or physics issues) is poor GMing. Running unexciting, stagnant combats is poor GMing. Not knowing the rules of the system such that the players want to stay away from the resolution mechanics is poor GMing. There are plenty more ares of poor GMing that require experience, introspection and skill development. I just don't see why this one area is a specific or unique problem.

And beyond that, again, as I said in post upthread. The challenge needs to be evolving. You need to be introducing new complications. If you don't have enough genre and stakes relevant complications to functionally and coherently evolve the narrative, then (i) shorten the challenge, (ii) consult relevant material for immediate inspiration, (iii) work on broadening your knowledge base so you can deploy on the fly!

Skill Challenges are a framework to organize non-combat conflict resolution such that (i) all players (rather than a single player strategically predominating) deploy their archetypical resources (such that the challenge causes their chosen thematic archetype to emerge with time) in resolving genre-relevant scenes. Its a construct built (ii) to provide a tangible means for dramatic pacing/structuring of conflicts (iii) and to assert finality of scene resolution, thus (iv) propelling the narrative through the interfacing of codified mechanics and creativity (rather than alternative means that may involve convincing the GM to make a favorable ruling, while the GM has conflict of interest, on a strategic power play...or outright GM fiat). Like anything else, all of those take groomed skill (player-side as well as GM-side) to do well. I'm better today than I was yesterday and I expect to be better next year than I am today. And I've certainly had instances of doing a poor job in my GMing tenure (with respect to all of the above) that were due to a lack of skillful execution on my end. Like anything else, I worked to get better. And I did.

But to the broader point, I'll agree all day that rules need to be concise, coherent, transparent, accessible (at the table) and require as little mental overhead and table handling time as possible while still producing the play experience you're looking for.
 

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While I understand that is your more broad concern (and a legitimate one in any endeavor), I was honing on the more specific concern outlined below with respect to GM experience and acuity leading to a more provocative, functional Skill Challenge.

[...]

And I was then noting that, yes, while is true, the same contention/concern holds sway over the execution of every other element of GMing.

Just a funny observation, I feel my concern (improved rules) is more specific than yours (improve the overall game experience). At least, that's how I read it. I basically agree on all your points.

Skill Challenges are a framework to organize non-combat conflict resolution such that (i) all players (rather than a single player strategically predominating) deploy their archetypical resources (such that the challenge causes their chosen thematic archetype to emerge with time) in resolving genre-relevant scenes. Its a construct built (ii) to provide a tangible means for dramatic pacing/structuring of conflicts (iii) and to assert finality of scene resolution, thus (iv) propelling the narrative through the interfacing of codified mechanics and creativity (rather than alternative means that may involve convincing the GM to make a favorable ruling, while the GM has conflict of interest, on a strategic power play...or outright GM fiat). Like anything else, all of those take groomed skill (player-side as well as GM-side) to do well. I'm better today than I was yesterday and I expect to be better next year than I am today. And I've certainly had instances of doing a poor job in my GMing tenure (with respect to all of the above) that were due to a lack of skillful execution on my end. Like anything else, I worked to get better. And I did.

These are all worthwhile goals. The question I am posing is: how do we write rules that help GMs fulfill these goals? Can a different set of guidelines/rules make the system more accessible to new players?
 
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The question I am posing is: how do we write rules that help GMs fulfill these rules? Can a different set of guidelines/rules make the system more accessible to new players?

Yes. Beyond rules, I think a stronger sensory experience would be helpful. An extremely large percentage of the populace learn visually. Visual examples of execution of functional play from a ruleset is exceedingly helpful. That is how I learned to GM; I watched my older cousin's group for a long time when I was a wee lad...then I grabbed my pals and I waded in. We have the means to leverage that in the current era. Insider links to tutorial podcasts/presentations that are available via code redemption (accessible by way of rulebook purchase) would be enormously helpful in my estimation.
 

These are all worthwhile goals. The question I am posing is: how do we write rules that help GMs fulfill these goals? Can a different set of guidelines/rules make the system more accessible to new players?

Well one thing that would help is not having numerous examples and versions of the rules that are different and spread throughout numerous books and mag articles. If the rules aren't working take the time to get them right and make one place the repository for the rules (I honestly believe that if all we have is errata for SC's then WotC should have allowed people access to the new SC rules errata and examples without being a subscriber to DDI and/or having to buy new books). And yes, I do think the rules have actually changed and are different from DMG 1 to essentials.
 

And so forth - narrating each situation as it comes up, but needing a couple of failures before the whole task fails.
Oh, I agree. But when each skill itself has a consequence for failure that is logical based on the narration at hand then it starts to become another form of process simulation. It comes back to, what benefit does the structure of X successes before Y failures have instead of simply narrating the game and using skills as they are appropriate. When the narration reaches the stated goal then the "skill challenge" is complete.

To me, this just seems so much more intuitive. You can still use the basic structure of "Narrate the scene, let people make skill checks, if they succeed move on to the next scene" but without keeping track of the number of successes or failures total.
 

Oh, I agree. But when each skill itself has a consequence for failure that is logical based on the narration at hand then it starts to become another form of process simulation. It comes back to, what benefit does the structure of X successes before Y failures have instead of simply narrating the game and using skills as they are appropriate. When the narration reaches the stated goal then the "skill challenge" is complete.

To me, this just seems so much more intuitive. You can still use the basic structure of "Narrate the scene, let people make skill checks, if they succeed move on to the next scene" but without keeping track of the number of successes or failures total.

Bold mine.

Assuming classes are relatively balanced with respect to potency and breadth of non-combat resources such that

(i) all players (rather than a single player strategically predominating) deploy their archetypical resources (such that the challenge causes their chosen thematic archetype to emerge with time) in resolving genre-relevant scenes.

holds true, then the advantages are the same as the advantages of HP for challenge resolution in combat (the 3 in x:3 are the HPs for non-combat resolution). This creates the dynamic of (bolded)

Its a construct built (ii) to provide a tangible means for dramatic pacing/structuring of conflicts (iii) and to assert finality of scene resolution, thus (iv) propelling the narrative through the interfacing of codified mechanics and creativity (rather than alternative means that may involve convincing the GM to make a favorable ruling, while the GM has conflict of interest, on a strategic power play...or outright GM fiat).

It also has the advantage of providing a framework to pace according to dramatic structure. But, again, possibly its most impactful contribution is the codified finality of scene resolution which circumvents the dynamic of "rather than alternative means that may involve convincing the GM to make a favorable ruling, while the GM has conflict of interest, on a strategic power play...or outright GM fiat" asserting that paradigm doesn't dictate narrative trajectory. To some this is a feature. To others its a bug and they want "rulings, not rules".

I like the fact that the framework enables:

- contribution by multiple parties will happen rather than domination of non-combat by selecting the appropriate spell on the swiss-army knife to address the situation.
- pacing in line with dramatic structure (if done skillfully).
- finality of resolution external to strategic power-plays, table negotiation/debate with GM to engender favorable rulings, or just outright fiat.

When running combat, you're not just ruling "yeah, that sounds pretty awesome/powerful/effective...ok, bad guy(s) is(are) dead." Combat resolution/finality is mediated by an ablation framework scheme (your HP pool versus the monters' HP pool) same as Skill Challenges (the conflict's pool of successes against required versus your pool of failures accrued).
 
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