Skill Points

[Li Shenron]

I am wondering why skill points are such a rare commodity in DnD? Is there a particular reason that there are classes limited to 2 skill points a level? I have noticed in other D20 system games that they were more plentiful and that seemed much more natural to me, so I wanted to know everyone else's feelings on the matter. Should they be more plentiful, less?

IMHO skill points are enough for every class, except for the Ranger which has too many in 3.5.

There is no reason why every Fighter should be a top alpinist and long-jump recordman, but many players seem to have difficulties in understanding that nearly all skills don't need to be maximised: they want their character to cover all his "default" skills, but pretend to also cover something else "otherwise I can't make an interesting character"...

Unless the party is small, and it has problems because overall it covers really few skills (as a whole), there is usually no need to boost skill points. I did that once, but I'm never going to do it again in a 4+ character party.

 

[No Name]

You could just rule that all skills are class skills when creating a first level character.

If a character comes from a long line of clerics and paladins, there shouldn't be a problem with that character having 4 ranks of knowledge (religion) at level 1, regardless of class. The only real balance issue affected is that this makes it easier to qualify for some prestige classes.

Of course, problems could arise if that character started his/her career as a plain old fighter instead of following family tradition. Oh, the shame.

 

[diaglo]

what do ranks in a skill represent?

they represent taking time and learning how to do something.

so classes with few skill points have little time to spend doing things that aren't part of their training in their class. a wizard is working on spells. a cleric is working on his pravers. a fighter is working on perfecting his combat prowess.

a rogue on the other hand has few things in his class that require his attention. so he plies his training in skills.

 

[Buttercup]

I agree that skill points are too scarce of a resource in 3E D&D, so I do a few things to fix that.

1. All skills cost 1 point per rank, but cross class skills maintain their max rank limitation.
2. I give every character 8 extra skill points at creation to spend specifically on Knowledge, Craft or Profession skills.
3. If a character thinks that a specific skill is essential to their character concept, I'll make it a class skill. For instance, I'd let the wizard who always got beat up as a child have Hide as a class skill, or the fighter who had a position as lookout with the militia could have Spot as a class skill.

I'm not sure why more DMs don't do this--it seems simple enough to me, and certainly doesn't break the game. I mean, who cares if the party's fighter has 4 ranks in Profession (Chimney Sweep) or the Cleric was raised by circus performers and learned to tumble before he dedicated himself to St. Cuthbert?

 

[Michael Silverbane]

In my upcoming homebrew, I'm increasing the number of skill points that each class gets by 50% (1 more for those with 2/level, 2 more for those with 4/level, and so on)... But I'm reducing the number of class skills that each class gets (probably by making them choose some number of class skills out of their current class skill list). In that way, you get characters with more skills, but not so many really skillful characters.

Later
silver

 

[Henry]

Strangely enough, I'm perfectly happy with wizards, psions, and other INT-based classes havin base 2 skill points; at most, I'd only give them 4 per level, because they'd be over-balanced with more, because they will naturally have a high INT anyway.

Fighters and Paladins of all classes hurt the most; most of these won't have more than two or three skills at decent levels, and this hurts them. Clerics I don't worry about, because that's like worrying about the guy who can't get a date, but happens to be a millionaire.

 

[Mercule]

In my house rules, I give 2 extra skill points to all beings at every level. I find it's a simple, elegant solution to what may be similar (perceived) problems to those you've found, Shalimar.

Exactly my solution. IMO, the extra 2 points per level (thus, +8 at 1st) is the perfect amount for all classes. Granted, I'm also a rat bastard about Knowledge skills, but everything seems to work well.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Mercule: Actually, I just give +2 per level, including 1st, in the house-ruled D&D campaign. I wonder if your version might be more logical, though. Hm. It's obviously more consistent with the D&D skill mechanics.

On the other hand, I quite like the idea in Arcana Evolved, or from Buttercup previously, of extra skills at 1st level only for Craft & Profession (and maybe Knowledge) - 4 skp in the first instance and 8 skp in the second.

Either way, I've found that a flat +2 every level has worked fine, for my purposes, so far.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

The game we're in now, the GM gave every class a flat 2sp raise across the bar (including +2 x 4 for 1st level).

They also bumped up the Wizard an additional 2sp to 6sp a level, as a "learned scholar" type character.

So far, I haven't found that even the Wizard bump is overbalancing. It HAS allowed the wizard to take full possible ranks in Use Magic Device as a cross-class skill, which in turn made Magical Aptitude an attractive feat. So far it's meant that the wizard used exactly ONE scroll of Cure Light Wounds, and will eventually be able to use wands reasonably regularly (this level, I think, she needs to roll a 12). Maybe when the Wizard is constantly buffed like a cleric in a few levels we'll see.

--fje

 

[Aaron L]

what do ranks in a skill represent?

they represent taking time and learning how to do something.

so classes with few skill points have little time to spend doing things that aren't part of their training in their class. a wizard is working on spells. a cleric is working on his pravers. a fighter is working on perfecting his combat prowess.

a rogue on the other hand has few things in his class that require his attention. so he plies his training in skills.

Bingo. Look at it this way: Skill points are class abilities for the classes that get a lot, just like feats are class abilities for fighters. Instead of 1Es thief skill precentages, rogues now get lotsa skill points to put where they want.

A fighters time is used up learning combat maneuvers (feats), a wizards time is used up learning magic, a clerics time is used up learning to be uber, etc... Rogues and such use thier time to become skillfull.

And if you want more skill points, you can always make your characters smarter... Int is a stat that I always try to put a decent score into. Just cant do dumb characters, hehe.

As an aside, Id just like to mention how much I like the skill system and its interface with the attribute system. At low levels raw natural ability and talent mean as much or more as the training you have (3 or 4 ranks vs +3 or +4 from ability mods in a stat you have a high score in) but the higher level and more skilled you become, training quickly outstrips natural ability.

Kind of tangental to the discussion, but it just made me think of it.