D&D 5E Skills in 5E. Do we want them?
- Thread starter TrippyHippy
- Start date
Frostmarrow
First Post
Simple: My character is wilderness themed so I should be able to make a fire.
Medium complexity: My character is wilderness themed and a journeyman survivor so I have a 70% chance of making a fire.
Complex: My character is wilderness themed and a journeyman survivor and after succeeding a 70% chance check I roll 1d6+Wis points of progress towards making a fire.
–I'm summng up my suggestions made in this thread.
Medium complexity: My character is wilderness themed and a journeyman survivor so I have a 70% chance of making a fire.
Complex: My character is wilderness themed and a journeyman survivor and after succeeding a 70% chance check I roll 1d6+Wis points of progress towards making a fire.
–I'm summng up my suggestions made in this thread.
scruffygrognard
Adventurer
Here's a simple skill system that I use in my C&C games... I think it could work for 5th edition.
Background Skills
All characters gain 3 background skills that are dependent upon their upbringing. Background skills include craft, profession, performance and knowledge skills (including languages). Characters with an INT bonus or penalty apply that to their number of background skills.
Class Skills
Characters also gain skills based on their chosen class. Magic-Users, for example, get Knowledge (arcana) and Craft (alchemy) as class skills. Rangers get Knowledge (nature) and Profession (hunter) as class skills.
All skills, once gained or chosen improve by 1 per level (starting at 1st level).
Background Skills
All characters gain 3 background skills that are dependent upon their upbringing. Background skills include craft, profession, performance and knowledge skills (including languages). Characters with an INT bonus or penalty apply that to their number of background skills.
Class Skills
Characters also gain skills based on their chosen class. Magic-Users, for example, get Knowledge (arcana) and Craft (alchemy) as class skills. Rangers get Knowledge (nature) and Profession (hunter) as class skills.
All skills, once gained or chosen improve by 1 per level (starting at 1st level).
Ahnehnois
First Post
Hey, that's what I said!
***
I also thought I'd mention this idea (link):
What if this was the case for everything? There was a concrete number (1-5 skill points or whatever), that was a beginner, and several ranks above that (every 5 skill points sounds reasonable). Beginner-Expert-Master-Legend or somesuch. And each rank and a few basic assumed tasks that they could obviously do, as decided in the skill. Tiers don't work very well for characters as a whole, but they work great for skills individually!Monte Cook said:
Li Shenron
Legend
A skill system allows more freedom in character creation, whereas class abilities generally means more iconic characters unless multiclassing is allowed.
Unfortunately I think the 3ed skill system went only half way, because with the max ranks and the double cost, it took a lot of courage for a player to invest in cross-class skills. It was like "you can do it, but it's not going to be good for you".
I am quite undecided on whether I want... I always liked using skills and feats to customize characters, much more than multiclassing, but I still want classes to strongly define characters without totally shoehorning them.
Other problems with 3ed skills were that some of them were too weak to be useful (but this could have been easily fixed: just add more uses), that some of them were more relevant when someone in the party didn't have them (e.g. move silently) and that a lot of people pretended every character of certain classes (most notably Rogues) to have all their typical skills maxed and then some. One of the most common house rules in 3ed groups had to do with giving everyone more skills points than normal, or grouping skills so that they were cheaper.
I think skills need to be in 5e, but that the following considerations will be taken by the designers:
- that if a gaming group doesn't want to bother with spending sp or selecting skills, it will take no time to just "slap" default skills onto a character (alternatively, you could just have PC do abilities check, but this requires every PC to follow the same rule)
- that the list of skills is not too short... compared to 6 abilities, it's best to have a list of at least 30 skills to support enough variations
- if some skills are really "must have" then make them "already have", e.g. if every Rogue should really be maximally good at searching traps, then make it automatically maxed to every Rogue without spending sp
I am however in favour of a revision on the concept of skill points... it was fine for me, but it's clearly more fine-tunable than is worth.
Unfortunately I think the 3ed skill system went only half way, because with the max ranks and the double cost, it took a lot of courage for a player to invest in cross-class skills. It was like "you can do it, but it's not going to be good for you".
I am quite undecided on whether I want... I always liked using skills and feats to customize characters, much more than multiclassing, but I still want classes to strongly define characters without totally shoehorning them.
Other problems with 3ed skills were that some of them were too weak to be useful (but this could have been easily fixed: just add more uses), that some of them were more relevant when someone in the party didn't have them (e.g. move silently) and that a lot of people pretended every character of certain classes (most notably Rogues) to have all their typical skills maxed and then some. One of the most common house rules in 3ed groups had to do with giving everyone more skills points than normal, or grouping skills so that they were cheaper.
I think skills need to be in 5e, but that the following considerations will be taken by the designers:
- that if a gaming group doesn't want to bother with spending sp or selecting skills, it will take no time to just "slap" default skills onto a character (alternatively, you could just have PC do abilities check, but this requires every PC to follow the same rule)
- that the list of skills is not too short... compared to 6 abilities, it's best to have a list of at least 30 skills to support enough variations
- if some skills are really "must have" then make them "already have", e.g. if every Rogue should really be maximally good at searching traps, then make it automatically maxed to every Rogue without spending sp
I am however in favour of a revision on the concept of skill points... it was fine for me, but it's clearly more fine-tunable than is worth.
Skills are probably the least controversial issue. I'd like to see a bit of a middle ground between 3E and 4E.
3E worked well in play, but character creation was way too convoluted, especially if you tried to make a rules-legal high level character. Too many fiddly bits, like class / cross-class (for each of your classes and prestige classes, aagh), racial bonuses, synergy bonuses, item bonuses, feat bonuses, extra skill points from increased intelligence (but not retroactively...) My Rogue never went past level 6 or so but it was already a pain, and he wasn't even multiclassed yet.
Oh, and then the game expected you to do this for every friggin NPC (and nothing had so much errata like NPC skill lists) If people who are paid to do this get it wrong, the system is too complicated.
I also never liked "cross-class skills", because many of them made no sense. Clerics didn't have Sense Motive as a class skill!
Cleric: "What is this guilty face, have you sinned, my son?"
Rogue: (bluffs, gets a 3) "Uh, no..."
Cleric: (Sense Motive, gets an 18) "Oh good, if you say so..."
4E just worked, which was good. However, I would have simplified differently. I'd have kicked class skills and kept skill points (but without the complications). I'd also have kept Craft and Profession (who thought they were unimportant!?)
Here is what I'd do for 5E:
Each class has 2-3 iconic skills (Arcana for the Wizard, Stealth and Thievery for Rogue etc) These get a flat bonus, which is equal to maximizing them, say +5 +1/level.
PCs then get a number of skill points (unmodified by Intelligence!) to put in other skills. There is no restriction or different point cost, just a friendly suggestion which skills could be useful.
3E worked well in play, but character creation was way too convoluted, especially if you tried to make a rules-legal high level character. Too many fiddly bits, like class / cross-class (for each of your classes and prestige classes, aagh), racial bonuses, synergy bonuses, item bonuses, feat bonuses, extra skill points from increased intelligence (but not retroactively...) My Rogue never went past level 6 or so but it was already a pain, and he wasn't even multiclassed yet.
Oh, and then the game expected you to do this for every friggin NPC (and nothing had so much errata like NPC skill lists) If people who are paid to do this get it wrong, the system is too complicated.
I also never liked "cross-class skills", because many of them made no sense. Clerics didn't have Sense Motive as a class skill!
Cleric: "What is this guilty face, have you sinned, my son?"
Rogue: (bluffs, gets a 3) "Uh, no..."
Cleric: (Sense Motive, gets an 18) "Oh good, if you say so..."
4E just worked, which was good. However, I would have simplified differently. I'd have kicked class skills and kept skill points (but without the complications). I'd also have kept Craft and Profession (who thought they were unimportant!?)
Here is what I'd do for 5E:
Each class has 2-3 iconic skills (Arcana for the Wizard, Stealth and Thievery for Rogue etc) These get a flat bonus, which is equal to maximizing them, say +5 +1/level.
PCs then get a number of skill points (unmodified by Intelligence!) to put in other skills. There is no restriction or different point cost, just a friendly suggestion which skills could be useful.
Last edited:
keterys
First Post
Maybe, but we're at pretty far points on what we're looking for based on your post...
I would prefer that 5e base its skill system on any edition other than 3e's.
3e is/was
* complex enough, particularly if you took different classes, to be an impediment for character tracking.
* bonus bloat and lagging modifiers (outliers on both sides)
* narrowed out character concepts by making it difficult to take fluff or RP skills (ex: Profession, Craft, Perform)
* narrowed out character concepts even further by making it difficult to take core concept skills (ex: Wilderness Survival or Knowledge (Nobility) on your fighter)
I think 5e should start, without adding in extra chapters, with making stat checks. Honestly, I'm fine if a new player sits down and doesn't need to learn skills. It's fine if we do include them at the core - if so, it should be a very simple question. Am I trained/proficient at 1st level? Pick one to a few, move on.
Okay, except drop the skill points entirely. You're Untrained, or Beginner, or Expert, or Master, etc... but there's no need for fiddly points in between unless it's a strictly optional chapter for those who desire the additional complexity.
You say that so easily, but are there groups that play with no skills? How?
How do you handle success / failure of anything a PC attempts that is not an attack or a spell? Even in very bare-bones dungeoneering, you need at least some form of Perception. How do you make a rogue class without at least Stealth and Thievery?
At the very least, you need an ability score check mechanic, and some basic criterion to decide whether a PC is competent at what he attempts. Think about a Wizard and a Fighter. Even if both have Int 18, the Wizard still knows more about magic, while the Fighter should be better at devising a tactic for a huge battle. Even without skills as a game mechanic, you need a skill system.
keterys
First Post
Nah, you can get by fine with ability checks and having written your character concept. Worked great for years.
Perception? Wisdom check.
Stealth/Thievery? Dexterity check.
Etc.
After all, if you have a skill system and the wizard and fighter both have Int 18, and they both have History at max... won't you still want the fighter to know the history of wars, succession, etc better than the history of the spread of magic, supernatural relations, etc? You can slice that pie as thin as you want.
Perception? Wisdom check.
Stealth/Thievery? Dexterity check.
Etc.
After all, if you have a skill system and the wizard and fighter both have Int 18, and they both have History at max... won't you still want the fighter to know the history of wars, succession, etc better than the history of the spread of magic, supernatural relations, etc? You can slice that pie as thin as you want.
Here's what I'd like to see re: skills in 5e, prompted by the fact I'm running AD&D right now and not using them, outside of a roll on the Secondary Skills table in the DMG.
Default rule: no skill system. The basic assumption is PCs are highly capable when it comes to mundane tasks. Rules contain advice for using ability checks and ad-hoc DM rulings.
Option 1: non-scaling skills pegged to ability scores, ie 2e's NWPs. Skill checks in a trained skill = roll under relevant ability. Untrained skill checks = roll under ability/2 (or at some penalty).
Right now I'm really liking the idea PCs have a set of competencies that aren't level-dependent (and mundane-ish skills fit perfectly) and/or a character build resource sink going forward.
Default rule: no skill system. The basic assumption is PCs are highly capable when it comes to mundane tasks. Rules contain advice for using ability checks and ad-hoc DM rulings.
Option 1: non-scaling skills pegged to ability scores, ie 2e's NWPs. Skill checks in a trained skill = roll under relevant ability. Untrained skill checks = roll under ability/2 (or at some penalty).
Right now I'm really liking the idea PCs have a set of competencies that aren't level-dependent (and mundane-ish skills fit perfectly) and/or a character build resource sink going forward.
Frostmarrow
First Post
Something like this.
Cleric:
Knowledge Religion for being a cleric as a bonus. Pick a [Theme]:
[Urban] Priest
Appraise
Bluff
Disguise
Gather information
Knowledge (Architecture; History)
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
[Wilderness] Druid
Climb
Handle Animal
Hide
Knowledge (Nature)
Listen
Move Silently
Spot
Survival
[Dungeon] Chaplain
Balance
Disable Device
Escape Artist
Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Listen
Open Lock
Search
Use Rope
[Organized] Inquisitor
Diplomacy
Disguise
Forgery
Intimidate
Knowledge (Nobility)
Perform
Ride
Sense Motive
Pick five skills to be an apprentice in. 60% chance of success. Roll 1d6+Ability modifier progress points with each success towards a skill challenge.
Cleric:
Knowledge Religion for being a cleric as a bonus. Pick a [Theme]:
[Urban] Priest
Appraise
Bluff
Disguise
Gather information
Knowledge (Architecture; History)
Sense Motive
Sleight of Hand
[Wilderness] Druid
Climb
Handle Animal
Hide
Knowledge (Nature)
Listen
Move Silently
Spot
Survival
[Dungeon] Chaplain
Balance
Disable Device
Escape Artist
Knowledge (Dungeoneering)
Listen
Open Lock
Search
Use Rope
[Organized] Inquisitor
Diplomacy
Disguise
Forgery
Intimidate
Knowledge (Nobility)
Perform
Ride
Sense Motive
Pick five skills to be an apprentice in. 60% chance of success. Roll 1d6+Ability modifier progress points with each success towards a skill challenge.
tlantl
First Post
I find skills to be very useful but cumbersome. They take a lot of time to choose and for some they are hideously difficult to comprehend. Even reasonably bright players in games I've run find them a challenge to keep track of at times.
3e D&D became tedious in all of the book keeping necessary to play. Writing dungeons for the game gave me a headache with all of the options skills gave players and the need to at least try to have logical outcomes for any contingency. The added burden made a chore out of something I used to enjoy a lot.
3e D&D became tedious in all of the book keeping necessary to play. Writing dungeons for the game gave me a headache with all of the options skills gave players and the need to at least try to have logical outcomes for any contingency. The added burden made a chore out of something I used to enjoy a lot.
Iron Heroes had a pretty decent system. Instead of penalizing for non-class skills it just made it easier for you to take class skills.
-No class skills
-You get a few skill groups
-If you spend a point on any skill in a skill group they all go up one point
-You can still put points into any skill
Example skill group athletics: climb, jump, swim
Under this system characters can easily level up the skills that are thematically attached to their character class and they are not prevented from branching out if they want to. For instance, a wizard could take climb or swim but would have to allocate more skill resources to it than a class that has this as one of their skill groups.
Conversely, you could just make all the skill groups into "super-skills" and reduce the number of skill points classes receive. Take a point in athletics and that skill covers all the sub-skills. I don't really like this second option, but it would really make for a smaller character sheet.
-No class skills
-You get a few skill groups
-If you spend a point on any skill in a skill group they all go up one point
-You can still put points into any skill
Example skill group athletics: climb, jump, swim
Under this system characters can easily level up the skills that are thematically attached to their character class and they are not prevented from branching out if they want to. For instance, a wizard could take climb or swim but would have to allocate more skill resources to it than a class that has this as one of their skill groups.
Conversely, you could just make all the skill groups into "super-skills" and reduce the number of skill points classes receive. Take a point in athletics and that skill covers all the sub-skills. I don't really like this second option, but it would really make for a smaller character sheet.
Szatany
First Post
What I want to see in 5E is to separate skills into groups, based on their importance in play.
Group 1:
BAB and caster level. If those were to become skills, they would be in this group. Skills like melee combat, ranged combat, combat magic, ritual magic, dodge, maybe movement, parry, concentration etc. Even saves could become skills (in addition to static defenses)
Rules for those would be most strict. Bonuses would be rare and minor.
Group 2:
skills that are useful in play but not essential. Skills that can save your life on occastion and are a good to have.
Things like ride, diplomacy, bluff, sneak, perception or athletics.
Those skills could be purchased with skill points or a flat bonus each X levels, based on class.
Group 3:
minor/background skills. Ones that don't add anything substantial to a character, or are useless in adventures.
Professions, crafts, performs, knowledge skills.
Players would be free to spend time to increase those skills as they see fit. Bonuses are cheap and easy to come by.
Group 1:
BAB and caster level. If those were to become skills, they would be in this group. Skills like melee combat, ranged combat, combat magic, ritual magic, dodge, maybe movement, parry, concentration etc. Even saves could become skills (in addition to static defenses)
Rules for those would be most strict. Bonuses would be rare and minor.
Group 2:
skills that are useful in play but not essential. Skills that can save your life on occastion and are a good to have.
Things like ride, diplomacy, bluff, sneak, perception or athletics.
Those skills could be purchased with skill points or a flat bonus each X levels, based on class.
Group 3:
minor/background skills. Ones that don't add anything substantial to a character, or are useless in adventures.
Professions, crafts, performs, knowledge skills.
Players would be free to spend time to increase those skills as they see fit. Bonuses are cheap and easy to come by.
Last edited:
spaceLem
Explorer
I'd like to see a simple skills system to address certain aspects like distance you can jump, how well you can do certain physical activities, stealth, knowledges, crafting etc.
The list should be reasonable short (maybe around 8--15), and I'd really like them to have something like a few descriptive levels (e.g. untrained, novice, journeyman, master, grandmaster), if that works.
However, certain skills should be optional, such as diplomacy, searching, perception, bluffing -- that is, activities that can be roleplayed. I say optional, since I can see people getting bored of searching every inch of a corridor in case there's a trap, and some of us aren't as eloquent as our fantasy counterparts, but it shouldn't be hardcoded into the system as a required die roll.
The list should be reasonable short (maybe around 8--15), and I'd really like them to have something like a few descriptive levels (e.g. untrained, novice, journeyman, master, grandmaster), if that works.
However, certain skills should be optional, such as diplomacy, searching, perception, bluffing -- that is, activities that can be roleplayed. I say optional, since I can see people getting bored of searching every inch of a corridor in case there's a trap, and some of us aren't as eloquent as our fantasy counterparts, but it shouldn't be hardcoded into the system as a required die roll.
Dagredhel
First Post
If noncombat abilities (skills, nonweapon proficiencies, background, talents, etc.) are a distinct subsystem seperate from character class, then it could be a matter of preference whether to use them or not.
For 'trained skills', I echo the notion that has been mentioned several times that incremental advancement needn't be point-by-point. I do appreciate that some folks prefer point buy, and a more detailed system could be presented as just that: an option for those who prefer it. But for myself, I also prefer a progression like this:
Untrained
Apprentice
Journeyman
Master
Grandmaster
For 'trained skills', I echo the notion that has been mentioned several times that incremental advancement needn't be point-by-point. I do appreciate that some folks prefer point buy, and a more detailed system could be presented as just that: an option for those who prefer it. But for myself, I also prefer a progression like this:
Untrained
Apprentice
Journeyman
Master
Grandmaster
Li Shenron
Legend
Completely agree on the fiddly bits... it seemed good to be able to customize my PCs to the last skill point, but ultimately it's not really that important. It really bothered me instead about NPCs, to the point that so many times I just quitted and let them be rules-illegal (after all, why really care?).
I'm thinking more or less the same at the moment, about having some iconic skill by default (i.e. "for free") and use points or whatever to add some secondary skills and differentiate characters. I would still like to keep Intelligence there tho (not necessarily in the same way it was used in 3ed).
As to Thieves, they had a nice array of thieving abilities to handles "Moving Silently" and Pick Pocketing", no need for a Stealth or Thievery "skill"
As to other stuff, just an attribute check seems to work in most cases. I don't really consider attribute checks to be a true "skills system".
So, yeah, for Core, no "skills" necessary, but as options, sure.
Frostmarrow
First Post
I think this is a good model. It opens up for character customization while still being easy for the DM to create stock NPCs with.
(Sorry about the bad joke xp-comment above. I meant to say Welcome to the boards!)
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
I'd like a skill system - in fact I'd like a skill system that works along the lines of the WotC 'legends and lore' article a few months back!
One of the problems that appeared in 3e to my mind is that while fighters were 'the feats guy' and the monk was 'the class abilities guy', the rogue was 'the skills guy' - and having made someone the 'skills guy', then by the immutable laws of niche protection, other classes had to be the 'sucky at skills' guys - especially the fighter and his mates for some reason.
For 5e I'd like to see NO class be 'the skills guy', and to allow every class to have access to a pretty wide range of skills - perhaps a few default ones which are always appropriate to a class, and then options from an entire list; ditch the pigeonholing via 'class skills'.
The other related thing is to kill this silly dependency on rogues to disarm traps. Let anyone who invests in the appropriate skills disarm them!
Cheers
One of the problems that appeared in 3e to my mind is that while fighters were 'the feats guy' and the monk was 'the class abilities guy', the rogue was 'the skills guy' - and having made someone the 'skills guy', then by the immutable laws of niche protection, other classes had to be the 'sucky at skills' guys - especially the fighter and his mates for some reason.
For 5e I'd like to see NO class be 'the skills guy', and to allow every class to have access to a pretty wide range of skills - perhaps a few default ones which are always appropriate to a class, and then options from an entire list; ditch the pigeonholing via 'class skills'.
The other related thing is to kill this silly dependency on rogues to disarm traps. Let anyone who invests in the appropriate skills disarm them!
Cheers
Similar Threads
