D&D 5E Skills that you u are not proficient with

This is really sad now, I am thinking about leaving the game

We have two house rules, one will give you -5 in skills you are not trained. The other gives adds half your level to your trained skills.

With books' rules at level 2, your maximum prof is 2 and your min is 0, As a Bard you gained +1 in all skills tnx to Jack of All Trades which means you are 1 step behind trained skills.
In our game at level 2, maximum prof is 3 and minimum is -5, as a Bard you gained +1 for JoAT and will be 8 steps behind trained skills.
Totally unfair !

JoAT does has not designed to prevent Bard to be less dafter as others who are not trained, its designed to makes Bard be good even on non trained skills .....

As it says in PHB page 53, as it describes the class " Many Bards Prefer to stick to sidelines in combat, using their magic to inspire their allies and hinder their foes ( which refers to Bardic Inspiration ) blah blah blah They have a wide ranging knowledge of many subjects and natural aptitude that lets them do almost anything well ( refers to Jack of All Trades ).



Our DM does not accept my reasons and I refused my request , I asked him to make Jack of All Trades fill half of the new gap :S

Its unfair, beyond words.

Agreed.
Unfortunately for you and your group, it seems that the DM has decided to implement a bunch of house rules without thinking about how it effects other parts of the game. Your Jack-of-all-Trades ability being just one of MANY things that will get messed up by changing how proficiencies work.

Very sorry to hear that you couldn't find a better resolution.
 

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[MENTION=6802927]Inoeex[/MENTION]: Yes, that is unfair. I can't grasp why your DM feels the need to impose those changes to the skill system. I would probably leave too.
 


Agreed.
Unfortunately for you and your group, it seems that the DM has decided to implement a bunch of house rules without thinking about how it effects other parts of the game. Your Jack-of-all-Trades ability being just one of MANY things that will get messed up by changing how proficiencies work.

Very sorry to hear that you couldn't find a better resolution.

Could you possibly tell me some of other things may be affected with this change? Our DM is a close friend of mine and one the oldest friend I have, I know him for 15 years or maybe even more.
He may listen to me, if I give him other examples. I think he is misunderstanding my point. He may thought I want to make my character optimized and make him the strongest.

Actually I dont wanna leave, but I have to. All the players are my friends ( except for one ) and I enjoy the amazing original story our DM has written for us, on the other hand I can abide the changes :((
 

Could you possibly tell me some of other things may be affected with this change?
It's hard for us to comment on specifics without knowing all the details of your group. There may be other factors of which we are unaware.

I would personally advocate for using the system as written with no modifications to how the skills work. At the very least, I would ask the DM to explain why he has changed the way skills work.

and I enjoy the amazing original story our DM has written for us ...
It doesn't really sound like you're enjoying it based on what you said in your other thread.
 

Hiya!

Sorry to hear of your woes. :(

Your DM said no. That's ok. Sucks, sure, but it's his campaign and them's the breaks. On a happier note...you now have a rock solid "DM, I'm gonna roll up a new guy if it's ok with you. I wanted to be decent with a lot of skills, but the house rule we have now is kinda sucking the excitement out of that idea for me". Roll up a new character and keep on playing I say.

You like your group and the DM's stories and such; to me it seems like 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater' if this one Skill check thing makes you quite. One thing that 5e is excellent at, is opening up the flood gates for creative freedom in terms of making an interesting character. You have to think in terms of "character" more than "mechanics", however. The 5e system lets someone play an "intellectual fighter, always wanted to be a wizard but never had the opportunity and always forced into physical roles because of his natural strength and size"...without penalizing you.

5e has a "smaller numbers" thing, and it seems to be the basis of your disappointment in the skill stuff. You are simply not going to see "high numbers". So seeing someone without Proficiency with a +4 bonus, and looking at your Bard and seeing a +6 may not seem like a big bonus. But it actually is quite likey to make a difference...once your DM gets a more solid feel for setting DC's and such. My rule of thumb is "DC 10 for mundane; DC 12 for a bit odd; DC +++ as the more obscure stuff kicks in; DC 20 minimum for things that have pretty much everything stacked against the character".

But no matter. Seems you aren't having fun with your Bard. If your DM isn't going to reconsider, I suggest making a new PC or re-imagining your's. Maybe your Bard always feels that he "should know more"...so focus RP'ing on that. Have him spend his cash on rare books and scrolls. RP him seeking out locations of great learning (major cities with renown libraries, or ancient creatures/NPC's). Get away from the idea of "everyone else can know what I do", and focus on the RP'ing opportunities that your DM's house rule mechanics has caused. Make use of the "downtime" stuff and play it up.

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

Actually I dont wanna leave, but I have to. All the players are my friends ( except for one ) and I enjoy the amazing original story our DM has written for us, on the other hand I can abide the changes :((

You want to leave because the DM nerfed one of the things your PC can do? Don't leave. That's not even the most interesting feature of Bards. Just talk it out with your DM to make him understand what is the point of the JoaT feature, but even without it, your PC will be fine.

The problem with skills is a lot more general, and it has to do with the fact that for simplicity's sake all skills must use the d20 system since 3e, but at the same time skills include things that are totally different from each other.

There are skills which are supposed to be used all the time by everyone, like perception, stealth, insight, athletics... That's because very often everyone is forced by the game to make a check. Everyone must check for perception to avoid a surprise attack, everyone must check for stealth to avoid being discovered, everyone must check for athletics to avoid falling while climbing, etc.

OTOH there are also skills/tools which represent niche specialties, like investigation, survival, knowledge, thieve's tools... Here the whole point is that one single specialist PC should take the task, and the others should just watch. It will be her little moment of spotlight.

Unfortunately the 'everybody should be able to try' looks so good in theory, but it can also kill the fun. Of course everybody should be able to try a check that you are actually forced to do to avoid an unpleasant consequence (the first group of skills). In addition, the 'everybody should be able to try' concept is there for two reasons:

- trying something creative not explicitly covered by the rules
- letting a group without a specialist still be able to do her tasks

It's hard to say no to the first of the two. The second one is a double-edge sword, because it's true that if you don't have a lockpicker in the group and you find a locked door, either you let someone else try or the whole adventure is ruined! But is it really? Because if you don't let someone else try, maybe the group is forced to find other ways to solve the problem. And if the DM does not allow any other way to continue the quest, it's the DM's fault.

Still, this case is not a big deal, if you really don't have a lockpicker or a historian or a survivalist, I say that both ways (letting the others try VS forcing the group to find other ways to solve problems) are ok. We cannot say that one of the two will make the game certainly more fun for everyone.

When it becomes a big deal, it's when you do have a specialist in the group, and you still allow everyone to try. Unfortunately between the d20 swinginess (max swing is 19) and the bounded accuracy of your proficiency bonus (max swing is only 6, and even worse at 1st level the swing is only 2!) - although a difference in ability score will help here - the laws of probability here makes it almost certain that a group of 4+ PCs will succeed at all tasks. Unless you increase the DC, but then even the specialist will fail most of the time.

The 5e designers were very aware of this problem, and that's why at some point they introduced Expertise to increase the gap between proficient and non-proficient PCs. Still I think the gap is too short at low levels. Some additional difference between proficient and non-proficient PCs would help, for example a DC limit on what you can accomplish if non-proficient.
 

You like your group and the DM's stories and such; to me it seems like 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater' if this one Skill check thing makes you quite. One thing that 5e is excellent at, is opening up the flood gates for creative freedom in terms of making an interesting character. You have to think in terms of "character" more than "mechanics", however. The 5e system lets someone play an "intellectual fighter, always wanted to be a wizard but never had the opportunity and always forced into physical roles because of his natural strength and size"...without penalizing you.

5e has a "smaller numbers" thing, and it seems to be the basis of your disappointment in the skill stuff. You are simply not going to see "high numbers". So seeing someone without Proficiency with a +4 bonus, and looking at your Bard and seeing a +6 may not seem like a big bonus. But it actually is quite likey to make a difference...once your DM gets a more solid feel for setting DC's and such. My rule of thumb is "DC 10 for mundane; DC 12 for a bit odd; DC +++ as the more obscure stuff kicks in; DC 20 minimum for things that have pretty much everything stacked against the character".

Did...you actually read the OP's posts, Paul? Because these house rules don't actually follow the math you're describing. Untrained skills suffer a -5 penalty--more or less equivalent to Disadvantage except that it stacks with Disadvantage--and trained skills get +1/2 level. It's literally nothing like the standard 5e math anymore. By level 6, the gap between a low-stat (-2 or even -3, because they rolled their stats), no-proficiency (-5) character and a high-stat (+3 to +4), proficient (+3) character can be as large as -8 vs. +7--fifteen points. Compared to the standard game gap of -1 vs. +5, or six points, it's two and a half times as much. And I'm not even sure that that's the whole story--I think there might be the normal proficiency bonus on top of that, for a total gap *three* times as big as the "standard" game.

All of your comments here literally don't apply to the game the OP's DM is running. Not even in the least. Particularly because you're looking at proficient vs. unproficient, whereas he's looking at Jack of All Trades vs. unproficient, and noticing that it's basically meaningless with his DM's houserules. Normally, at 2nd level, JoAT is giving +1 compared to a normal proficiency bonus of +2; with these house-rules, it still only gives +1, does nothing at all about the -5 penalty, and doesn't benefit from the +1/2 level thing.
[MENTION=6802927]Inoeex[/MENTION] -- I've just struck on an idea that, while it won't help you in the short term, will help you a lot more in the long term. Jack of All Trades specifically says that it adds half your Proficiency Bonus. Even with your DM's house rules, shouldn't that mean you should get half of the "half level" bonus too (or, essentially, one-quarter level bonus)? If the half-level thing applies to all skill checks as *part of* being Proficient, it seems like it *should* add to Jack of All Trades as well. Again, this won't get you much early on, but by level 8 it effectively doubles the benefit of Jack of All Trades. By level 12, you'll have a solid +5 to all non-proficient skills--eliminating the normal penalty. At maximum level, you'd have +8, or +3 after the non-proficient penalty is added in (compared to the normal +16, with no penalty).

A different alternative, if your DM thinks this excessive (which, unfortunately, sounds likely), could be to say "at 2nd level, and every 3 levels thereafter, decrease the penalty to skills you aren't proficient with by 1, to a minimum of 0." This means that, at 14th level, you make all skill checks at no penalty--you're still a full 7 points behind anybody that is proficient, so it's not like you're going to become the Ultimate Skillmonkey because of it.

Another option, if you're on good terms with your DM, is to ask why these changes were implemented. What purpose are they serving? How does your friend expect them to make the game a better, more enjoyable experience? If you can understand why they're being implemented, it may make you feel a little better about dealing with them. If you're looking for another example of a potentially dangerous rules-interaction, make sure to bring up Expertise, which both Rogues and Bards get--by doubling their proficiency bonus, in theory they should be getting +level to two (and later, four) trained skills--an utterly enormous bonus, given 5e's highly constrained number range. The only other concerning rules-interaction I can think of off the top of my head is Grapple: it's a special attack that uses Athletics (opposed by either Athletics or Acrobatics), rather than being an "attack roll" proper. With the massive disadvantage to untrained skills, and the massive boost to trained skills, a character trained in Athletics is essentially guaranteed to make--and maintain--a Grapple against a creature that isn't trained in at least one of those opposing skills. Since Grappling is a powerful way to control enemy monsters--especially when combined with Shoving--these rules make Grapple-using characters potentially broken.

And, finally, if nothing changes but you can't actually bring yourself to leave, you should also strongly consider picking up the Lore Bard subclass if, or when, you hit level 3. Lore Bard grants three additional skill proficiencies--on top of the standard 3 from Bard and 2 from background, that should give you a total of 8 (9, if you get a skill from your race) skill proficiencies. That's a massive number of skills--double what most characters get (2 from class, 2 from background). With 8 skills, you have nearly half of all skills covered--and since many are "doubles" (e.g. you don't really need both Intimidate AND Persuasion, or Investigation AND Perception), you can cover an extremely broad array of skills with 8 choices. For example, since you mentioned (privately?) that you have low Strength, you could go Acrobatics, Arcana, Perception, Insight, Medicine, Persuasion, Stealth, and...perhaps Survival or Nature, for the grand total. Numerous background options could give you any two of those (and if you play an Elf, which gives you Perception for free, you could pick up, say, Deception instead), and your 3 Bard and 3 College of Lore choices are literally unlimited. Though you should remember that the 3 College of Lore choices would have to wait until 3rd level--try to put lower-priority choices, like Arcana, Survival, or Insight off until then, while prioritizing highly useful ones like Perception, Medicine, or Stealth.

You'll still get little to no benefit from Jack of All Trades, but at least you'll be crazy good (due to houserules) at almost half (or exactly half, if you get a racial skill) of the skills in the game!
 

Could you possibly tell me some of other things may be affected with this change? Our DM is a close friend of mine and one the oldest friend I have, I know him for 15 years or maybe even more.
He may listen to me, if I give him other examples. I think he is misunderstanding my point. He may thought I want to make my character optimized and make him the strongest.

Actually I dont wanna leave, but I have to. All the players are my friends ( except for one ) and I enjoy the amazing original story our DM has written for us, on the other hand I can abide the changes :((

If these people are your friends, don't leave the game. Let the DM have his little house rule experiment and demonstrate to him how much it sucks as almost everybody is unable to climb out of pits, jump over small gaps, or notice anything. Even better, talk with the other players about this and consider leaving a gap in one of those skills so that the game-wide frustration can be well-demonstrated.
 

As a DM there are times I will let anyone roll an Ability check to learn something. And there are times I will only allow someone proficient in the skill (I would include Jack of All Trades in this) make an Ability check. As a DM it's my prerogative to do this and I let my players know that's how I roll.
 
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