Sleight of Hand Quesiton?

Aluvial

Explorer
I have a question about (or maybe just a problem with) the skill Sleight of Hand.
srd said:
SLEIGHT OF HAND (DEX; TRAINED ONLY; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: A DC 10 Sleight of Hand check lets you palm a coin-sized, unattended object. Performing a minor feat of legerdemain, such as making a coin disappear, also has a DC of 10 unless an observer is determined to note where the item went.

When you use this skill under close observation, your skill check is opposed by the observer’s Spot check. The observer’s success doesn’t prevent you from performing the action, just from doing it unnoticed.

You can hide a small object (including a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow) on your body. Your Sleight of Hand check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone observing you or the Search check of anyone frisking you. In the latter case, the searcher gains a +4 bonus on the Search check, since it’s generally easier to find such an object than to hide it. A dagger is easier to hide than most light weapons, and grants you a +2 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it. An extraordinarily small object, such as a coin, shuriken, or ring, grants you a +4 bonus on your Sleight of Hand check to conceal it, and heavy or baggy clothing (such as a cloak) grants you a +2 bonus on the check. Drawing a hidden weapon is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.

If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item.

You can also use Sleight of Hand to entertain an audience as though you were using the Perform skill. In such a case, your “act” encompasses elements of legerdemain, juggling, and the like.

Sleight of Hand DC Task
10 Palm a coin-sized object, make a coin disappear
20 Lift a small object from a person

Action: Any Sleight of Hand check normally is a standard action. However, you may perform a Sleight of Hand check as a free action by taking a –20 penalty on the check.

Try Again: Yes, but after an initial failure, a second Sleight of Hand attempt against the same target (or while you are being watched by the same observer who noticed your previous attempt) increases the DC for the task by 10.

Special: If you have the Deft Hands feat, you get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks.

Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, you get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks.

Untrained: An untrained Sleight of Hand check is simply a Dexterity check. Without actual training, you can’t succeed on any Sleight of Hand check with a DC higher than 10, except for hiding an object on your body.
My problem seems to be that a pretty good thief can take something off of another creature with just a check of 20. There is no opposed roll, and no mention of defenses. This check is the same whether you sneak up behind the creature you are stealing from or you are in combat with him. No AoO even... I looked to disarm here but it's not quite the same.... close

srd said:
Grabbing Items
You can use a disarm action to snatch an item worn by the target. If you want to have the item in your hand, the disarm must be made as an unarmed attack. If the item is poorly secured or otherwise easy to snatch or cut away the attacker gets a +4 bonus. Unlike on a normal disarm attempt, failing the attempt doesn’t allow the defender to attempt to disarm you. This otherwise functions identically to a disarm attempt, as noted above.

You can’t snatch an item that is well secured unless you have pinned the wearer (see Grapple). Even then, the defender gains a +4 bonus on his roll to resist the attempt.
So, even if you see them coming, have plenty of magical defenses up, mirror image, blur, deflection bonuses, the thief still only has to roll a 20. Is this correct?

I suppose that is my quesiton. Should a character be allowed to steal from another active character that he is in combat with? Shouldn't there be some type of opposed roll here?

Aluvial
 

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My first thoughts that this action can only be done against an "unaware", unactive victim.

I can't remember seeing this mentioned as a special action in combat like bluff-feint is, so it's not allowed. The closest action would be like a disarm.

Also some "common sense" could come into play by the DM here, just do not run it strickly as writen. Have it provoke an AoO (you are reaching into someone's square unarmed for instance), with any damage stopping the SoH attempt.
 

Dross said:
My first thoughts that this action can only be done against an "unaware", unactive victim.

I can't remember seeing this mentioned as a special action in combat like bluff-feint is, so it's not allowed. The closest action would be like a disarm.

Also some "common sense" could come into play by the DM here, just do not run it strickly as writen. Have it provoke an AoO (you are reaching into someone's square unarmed for instance), with any damage stopping the SoH attempt.
I agree, but I just need some rules backup for this type of thing.

At this point (with epic level characters) I definitely see where the rules are breaking down. Stealing from a high level creature, while that creature is braining you with slam attacks and a dancing greatsword is rediculous... Hell, the creature had a pumped up AC of 49!!! How do you steal from that.

Apparently with just a DC 20... who cares if you are seen or not when the thief is cutting your magic bow from you!!!

Aluvial
 

So, even if you see them coming, have plenty of magical defenses up, mirror image, blur, deflection bonuses, the thief still only has to roll a 20. Is this correct?


And succeed at the disarm attempt, yes. Keep in mind that blur and mirror image will reduce the likelihood to barely above 1% (the odds of rolling a 20, then succeeding on a 50% miss chance and correctly hitting one of two images is 1 in 80).

Note that this follows the usual rules for a "disarm action" including an AoO.
 

pawsplay said:
So, even if you see them coming, have plenty of magical defenses up, mirror image, blur, deflection bonuses, the thief still only has to roll a 20. Is this correct?


And succeed at the disarm attempt, yes. Keep in mind that blur and mirror image will reduce the likelihood to barely above 1% (the odds of rolling a 20, then succeeding on a 50% miss chance and correctly hitting one of two images is 1 in 80).

Note that this follows the usual rules for a "disarm action" including an AoO.
Why the disarm attempt? I didn't think you would have to do that with Sleight of Hand.

Aluvial
 



pawsplay said:
I was referring to the second section, "grabbing items."
It seems like the trained Sleight of Hand seems to overide the Disarm action...

It takes a DC of 20 to Lift a small object... I think that is different than the Grabbing an Item from the Disarm rules...

Aluvial
 

Aluvial said:
It seems like the trained Sleight of Hand seems to overide the Disarm action...

It takes a DC of 20 to Lift a small object... I think that is different than the Grabbing an Item from the Disarm rules...

Aluvial

Provided, of course, you are permitted to make the attempt. Assuming you do, be aware that to "Use skill that takes 1 action" usually provokes an AoO. You could use Concentration to sleight of hand defensively.
 

pawsplay said:
Provided, of course, you are permitted to make the attempt. Assuming you do, be aware that to "Use skill that takes 1 action" usually provokes an AoO. You could use Concentration to sleight of hand defensively.
What do you mena by "permitted to make the attempt?"

I think that I get it. Does this AoO stop a Sleight of Hand attmept, like a Disarm, or does the attempt go through regardless?

Aluvial
 

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