D&D (2024) Smite Changes

[Pauln6]

I'm still confused how this is, in any way shape or form, a problem. The reason it isn't like sneak attack is because it is supposed to consume a resource, you aren't supposed to be able to smite on every single hit you ever make. It also consumes a spell slot because that allows for scaling, you can smite powerful enemies harder than weaker enemies, while sneak attack hits everyone for the same amount every time.

Your problem solely seems to be that the ability was designed not to waste the resource. Which is a good thing, because otherwise, the Divine Smite ability would rarely get used, be a terrible ability and not an iconic one, and all around just be a worse design for what I can only assume is the questionable benefit of easing your personal incredulity towards the order of events.

As long as Smite damage isn't doubled on a crit, I don't think it's a problem to declare before or after the attack (assuming the spell isn't wasted on a miss).

My experience of Battlemasters is that players will usually spend one on a crit and not even worry about the rider effect but that's not the same as paladins when you are talking about doubling 1d8 to 1d12 vs 3d8 to 8d8. To be honest, if all fighters got one extra weapon die on a crit and Battlemaster dice were not doubled, I could live with that. I would be unhappy if sneak damage isn't doubled on a crit unless doubling sneak damage in the first round becomes an assassin class feature maybe?

Actually, adding Charisma bonus damage when you spend a spell slot might deal with the crit issue if you can live with a paladin who aims for Cha 30.

 

[Pauln6]

With Clerics casting Smite spells and Find Steed better than Paladins do, Paladins are literally just bad Clerics now.

Merged spell lists worked poorly in 2e and will work poorly in 5.5. I keep giving it the biggest thumbs down in all my feedback.

 

[Amrûnril]

It's not that "the ability was not designed to waste resources" as you put it. The ability was designed to pretend that was a real risk of doing so in order to leverage that illusion elsewhere.


No it goes more like this because we are humans playing this game while existing in linear time & a retcon made by us like that is very different from what you describe. It's not the character engaging in a retcon at the last second

Spoiler: It's the player

View attachment 277219

​

A successful attack turning out to be a smite at the last second isn't a product of random chance that could be attributed to the PC's choices. The player straight up decides after looking at the d20.

Spoiler

Alice: "xxx, we know that hits & I'm going to make that a smite that's yyy radiant"
DM: "ok Alice you bring that [+N] sword down & at the last instant decide to channel power through the blade, the feathered celestial snake defending this tomb is looking really hurt"
Bob: "I'm going to swing my sword at the couatl... crap... I really need to find a +n sword like the one bob got for his smites, I think ### is going to miss?..."
DM: "Yea you were off by a bit. Bob you swing your sword but the serpent flaps it's wings & flails a bit unpredictably to just miss your blade"
DaveTheNewbie: "I'm going to cast a spell, does xxx hit?"
DM: "That depends what are you doing?"
DaveTheNewbie: "casting a spell, Siias d'cannith is a disciple of Aureun & a master of the arcane"
DM: "what spell? You gotta declare the spell then roll."
DaveTheNewbie: "ok fine I'm going to cast chaos bolt at [Dave's max slot level]?"
DM: "now you need to roll"
DaveTheNewbie: "oh... 1 plus.. hmm... can't I just use my old roll like Alice does all the time?"
DM: "no dave you can't ... what does [Dave's max slot level] chaos bolt do on a miss? Paladin's get to check if they hit before smiting in order to make up for the fact that it does nothing if they miss so they don't waste the charge or slot"
DaveTheNewbie: "um... flip flip flip I'm reading this & it looks like chaos bolt cast at [Dave's max slot level] does the same thing as when I miss with firebolt ray of frost or when Alice misses with her +N sword"
DM: "thinks a second & sighs ok Silias channels arcane forces to bring down chaos upon the guardian snake but just misses & the bolt of chaos crashes into a wall... Alice you're up"
Alice: "" I'm going to swing my sword and... xxx looks like I hit, I'm going to make that a smite"
DM: "Ok you bring that charge of divne energy through your blade but at the last instant the couatl casts shield causing the charge to be redirected into the floor"
Alice: "WTF?!... I wouldn't have used my smite if I knew you were going to retcon a shield spell in after I already hit. Smite is a reaction to getting hit so he would have needed to shield before I reacted to hitting."
DaveTheNewbie: "is paladin of xxx like a homebrew subclass? it seems a bit over the top, do I get my spell slot back too? What about when I cast web earlier & everything saved, do I get that back at least?"

Yes there are spells that save for half & spells that just work like simple weapons martial weapons, light armor medium armor heavy armor & shields "just work" but my sheer coincidence the first spell attack spell I clicked was one of the many that do nothing on a miss or failed save. Out of the spells with a ranged spell attack or a melee spell attack the vast majority do nothing mechanically other than consume a spell slot on a failed attack roll. Even with save spells there are quite a number like slow blindness/deafness bane & so on that do nothing to the target on a successful save

Choosing to deliver a smite at the moment an attack makes contact is completely plausible from an in-character perspective. It's only a "retcon" if you make the choice to interpret it that way.

As for the spellcasting comparison, I don't actually think spells with their own attack rolls are actually the appropriate analogy. When a Paladin makes an attack roll, they aren't determining whether Divine Smite hits, they're determining whether they have the opportunity to use Divine Smite. Once that opportunity arises and the Paladin chooses to take advantage of it, no attack roll is required for the smite itself, the effect simply happens. This is a significant advantage over a spell like Chaos Bolt, but Chaos Bolt has other advantages, like striking from range, granting a limited choice of damage types, and possibly striking an additional target.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Interestingly, several of them lost Concentration since they don't have to be cast before the attack. Anything with an ongoing effect still has it, however. I feel the smite spells have been improved enough to consider using them outside of niche concepts

They’ve always been better use of spell slots than divine smite, but yeah hopefully fewer people will mistakenly think they’re a waste this way.

 

[tetrasodium]

Choosing to deliver a smite at the moment an attack makes contact is completely plausible from an in-character perspective. It's only a "retcon" if you make the choice to interpret it that way.

As for the spellcasting comparison, I don't actually think spells with their own attack rolls are actually the appropriate analogy. When a Paladin makes an attack roll, they aren't determining whether Divine Smite hits, they're determining whether they have the opportunity to use Divine Smite. Once that opportunity arises and the Paladin chooses to take advantage of it, no attack roll is required for the smite itself, the effect simply happens. This is a significant advantage over a spell like Chaos Bolt, but Chaos Bolt has other advantages, like striking from range, granting a limited choice of damage types, and possibly striking an additional target.

You are channeling the fallacy of what might be the most famous chick tract of all and doing it in what seems to be a completely serious manner.

Spoiler: Marcie YOU'RE DEAD!

Those two very different realms simply do not cross when it requires ignoring the distinction dividing them as all of the "PC decides" suggestions do, but you are even taking it a step further. A paladin is incapable of making an attack roll because the player of that paladin PC is the one who is making the roll.. The character doesn't have agency or free will to decide anything, only the player does has the agency & free will. The only way something could be decided by means other than the player choosing to would be some form of random determination that exists outside the player's ability to simply declare it. "Looks like that d20 I just rolled will hit So I choose to declare it to be a smite" is not a condition that it outside the player's control.

 

[Clint_L]

Does anyone think that allowing smite at range will allow the advent of "holy archer"-type play within the paladin class itself? I can see it making them much more exciting as a dip for a ranger or rogue, but it is hard for me to see how a ranged-focused paladin would work. Then again, I might be missing the obvious!

 

[Bill Zebub]

Merged spell lists worked poorly in 2e and will work poorly in 5.5. I keep giving it the biggest thumbs down in all my feedback.

Merged spell lists would work fine if they stopped implementing class abilities as spells. hunters mark, smites, etc.

 

[Gorck]

Does anyone think that allowing smite at range will allow the advent of "holy archer"-type play within the paladin class itself? I can see it making them much more exciting as a dip for a ranger or rogue, but it is hard for me to see how a ranged-focused paladin would work. Then again, I might be missing the obvious!

Paladins are already a MAD class with CHA, CON, and STR. Swapping out STR with DEX will give the Paladin a higher AC (possibly, depending on armor), a higher Initiative, and a higher DEX save (which is more common than STR saves). So it might actually be viable. I guess the only way to find out is to play test one.

 

[Clint_L]

Paladins are already a MAD class with CHA, CON, and STR. Swapping out STR with DEX will give the Paladin a higher AC (possibly, depending on armor), a higher Initiative, and a higher DEX save (which is more common than STR saves). So it might actually be viable. I guess the only way to find out is to play test one.

I could see that, but they seem to be so built around melee that it seems like they would be giving up an awful lot of their kit in order to be a ranged combatant. I'd love to hear back from someone who tried it.

But a rogue sharpshooter who could also drop a few smites on top of sneak attack damage...that just seems crazy powerful.

 

[Amrûnril]

You are channeling the fallacy of what might be the most famous chick tract of all and doing it in what seems to be a completely serious manner.

Spoiler: Marcie YOU'RE DEAD!

View attachment 277294

Those two very different realms simply do not cross when it requires ignoring the distinction dividing them as all of the "PC decides" suggestions do, but you are even taking it a step further. A paladin is incapable of making an attack roll because the player of that paladin PC is the one who is making the roll.. The character doesn't have agency or free will to decide anything, only the player does has the agency & free will. The only way something could be decided by means other than the player choosing to would be some form of random determination that exists outside the player's ability to simply declare it. "Looks like that d20 I just rolled will hit So I choose to declare it to be a smite" is not a condition that it outside the player's control.

I'm really not sure what bearing this has on the substance of my argument.

What actually happens at the table is that a player chooses to have their character attack a target and then makes an attack roll to resolve the attack. If the attack succeeds, they can then choose to apply Divine Smite, an ability that has a sucessful attack as a triggering condition but does not require a separate attack roll. If the attack fails, that trigger never occurs, and the player has no such opportunity to expend a spell slot.

In the in-universe narrative that the events at the table create, that sequence of events could be described as the Paladin choosing to attack an enemy. If the attack succeeds, the Paladin, in the moment of successfully making contact and beginning to follow through, might choose to imbue the ongoing strike with divine power. If the attack fails, the Paladin has no reason to release divine power in this manner.

From either perspective and with either outcome, there is a coherent sequence of events with no retconning required.