D&D (2024) Smite Changes

[Bill Zebub]

Maybe there’s no character involved. Maybe from the character’s POV when they hit enemies, sometimes there’s a flash of light, and they have no idea why it only happens some of the times.

 

[tetrasodium]

I'm really not sure what bearing this has on the substance of my argument.

What actually happens at the table is that a player chooses to have their character attack a target and then makes an attack roll to resolve the attack. If the attack succeeds, they can then choose to apply Divine Smite, an ability that has a sucessful attack as a triggering condition but does not require a separate attack roll. If the attack fails, that trigger never occurs, and the player has no such opportunity to expend a spell slot.

In the in-universe narrative that the events at the table create, that sequence of events could be described as the Paladin choosing to attack an enemy. If the attack succeeds, the Paladin, in the moment of successfully making contact and beginning to follow through, might choose to imbue the ongoing strike with divine power. If the attack fails, the Paladin has no reason to release divine power in this manner.

From either perspective and with either outcome, there is a coherent sequence of events with no retconning required.

that bold section is literally the problem. Everything else is a distraction that inverts the flawed chick tract.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

that bold section is literally the problem. Everything else is a distraction that inverts the flawed chick tract.

Only to you, most of the people you are arguing with do not regard it as a problem and a lot of them see it as a feature.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Only to you, most of the people you are arguing with do not regard it as a problem and a lot of them see it as a feature.

To be fair, I would guess there are SOME other people who are bothered by it. I’m guessing @Lanefan, for example.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

To be fair, I would guess there are SOME other people who are bothered by it. I’m guessing @Lanefan, for example.

Probably not since it is so far removed from @Lanefan's base game it is not really on his radar. @Lanefan runs (as far as I know) a modified AD&D 1e and he will grab a mechanic he likes from pretty much anywhere. Now I played very little 1e and as far as I remember the Paladin was a restricted class (you needed some very special stats to qualify). I never saw one in play and I do not remember the rules.
Ok searching online I found some stuff for the AD&D 2e paladin and they only get spells at ninth level and have no such thing as smites. Which matches my memory that the paladin smite was a 3.x thing.

 

[Clint_L]

Probably not since it is so far removed from @Lanefan's base game it is not really on his radar. @Lanefan runs (as far as I know) a modified AD&D 1e and he will grab a mechanic he likes from pretty much anywhere. Now I played very little 1e and as far as I remember the Paladin was a restricted class (you needed some very special stats to qualify). I never saw one in play and I do not remember the rules.

Heavily modified. Lanefan kindly shared it with me and let me tell you, he and his group have basically created their own edition. It's pretty impressive. As far as I can work out, the version he uses doesn't exactly have paladins at all, even in the 1e sense. It has war clerics and cavaliers, some of whom are known as paladins, especially if they multi-class. No smites.

In regular 1e a paladin had to be human, lawful good, and had very demanding stat requirements (i.e. charisma 17, among other high stats). Also no smites.

 

[Lanefan]

Heavily modified. Lanefan kindly shared it with me and let me tell you, he and his group have basically created their own edition. It's pretty impressive. As far as I can work out, the version he uses doesn't exactly have paladins at all, even in the 1e sense. It has war clerics and cavaliers, some of whom are known as paladins, especially if they multi-class. No smites.

Variant: my own game does have Paladins (our other DM's doesn't, and it's his you're remembering) but of numerous alignments (LG,CG,LE,CE) and various species. But no smites, that is indeed something that came in with 3e.

That said, @Bill Zebub is correct in that I wouldn't agree with a mechanic where you only got to declare the smite after the hit-miss had been determined. You'd have to declare it before rolling the to-hit die.

 

[Stalker0]

I could see that, but they seem to be so built around melee that it seems like they would be giving up an awful lot of their kit in order to be a ranged combatant. I'd love to hear back from someone who tried it.

But a rogue sharpshooter who could also drop a few smites on top of sneak attack damage...that just seems crazy powerful.

What are they actually giving up by going ranged? They have ranged weapons, they have access to all the fighting styles now (including archery). Heavy Armor.....fighter get that proficiency doesn't stop them from playing archers.

In some ways the aura actually works better for an archer. Far easier to keep the ranged guys together in the nice protective aura than doing that while your always rushing off into melee.

 

[rmcoen]

Opening Statement: I have been running a 5e campaign for 3 years, and playing one for 2 years; where I play, I have a Paladin 6 / Genie Tomelock 3.

Unarmed Smite: I'm totally fine with this, already allowed it in my campaign, and my paladin has it in the other campaign. Has never come up. I have no issue with channeling the destructive power of god through the hand, or the weapon in the hand... same difference. However...

Ranged Smite: (a) ranged combat builds are too good in 5e. Moving on... (b) I can picture slicing into a foe and then surging power down the blade (melee Smite); when I miss, I don't release the power. Shooting... after the arrow leaves the bow (for example), I have no connection to it. How do I surge power into the arrow? In my headcanon, though, I'm totally fine for the (admittedly unoptimal) option to charge the arrow with a Smite before releasing it; hit or miss, the Smite is spent. Also, no post-attack Smite Spell option that way either. Which leads to...

(Also, didn't a read somewhere that Vax in Critical Role is throwing daggers and smiting with them? How's that mechanic working? Is he pre-smiting and then throwing the empowered dagger?)

Smite Spells: (a) the cleric shouldn't have this. Totally agree with everyone who said these should be class powers, not spells. (See Giffyglyph's Darker Dungeons supplement.) (b) Most of these are improved over 5e to actually be more useful - no Concentration is a huge benefit [sorry, can't Branding Smite, we'll lose Bless], a few got damage increases, and timing works better. (c) No spellcasting when using a Smite of any kind? WTF. Go back and see point (a).

Find Steed: Like this change mostly. Especially love the paladin getting a free casting, and much much faster casting. Since my paladin's mount just got chomped by a remorhaz, and now I'm hundreds of feet away from the rest of the party in full plate... I'm glaring hard at that 10 minute casting time! (Again with "Why does the cleric get this though? Just make Find Steed a class ability, not a magic tax, and move on!!)

One Smite Per Round: Sigh. I like the option to nova. I use it on spellcasting foes. I.... can let this one go. Paladins are really strong.

Smite and Critical Hits: I guess, let's look at it like this. Does the rogue's always-on Sneak Attack damage get multiplied in a crit? How about the Battlemaster's as-needed short-rest-replenished Superiority damage? What about that bonus hex or hunter's mark damage? If the answer to any of these is "yes", then Smite does too. It requires a hit, it takes a Long Rest resource... it should get at least what the no-resource and short-rest-resource abilities get. And yes, the paladin I play does usually wait for a crit to Smite... but that's not an option always (smiting this guy whether I crit or not, or oops out of spells). But if none of the above other cases of bonus damage get multiplied, then this maybe shouldn't either.

 

[Stalker0]

Smite and Critical Hits: I guess, let's look at it like this. Does the rogue's always-on Sneak Attack damage get multiplied in a crit? How about the Battlemaster's as-needed short-rest-replenished Superiority damage? What about that bonus hex or hunter's mark damage? If the answer to any of these is "yes", then Smite does too. It requires a hit, it takes a Long Rest resource... it should get at least what the no-resource and short-rest-resource abilities get. And yes, the paladin I play does usually wait for a crit to Smite... but that's not an option always (smiting this guy whether I crit or not, or oops out of spells). But if none of the above other cases of bonus damage get multiplied, then this maybe shouldn't either.

I don't get why this is still a thing. The current rules don't mention anything about critical hits, and the last one says we reverted to 2014 crit rules. There is nothing in the rules I can see that would prevent a paladin from criting with a smite