Sneak Attack : Do Not Maximize

[Prestidigitalis]

No, not quite that simple, as you don't roll damage until you hit.

Excuse me? The general recommendation is to roll attack and damage at the same time to speed things up. Every group I've played with does the same thing.

In fact, it's better to roll damage first for multi-target attacks, as you can apply the damage and result to each creature at the time you check whether you hit, e.g.:

Player: That's 16 lightning damage.
Player: 27 vs. this guy.
DM: He bursts into flame and then crumbles to ash.
Player: 24 vs. this guy.
DM: Ooh, he ducked to avoid Marthog's feint and the bolt missed his head by an inch.
Player: Okay, this one... Crit! That's a 20. I definitely hit with a 32, right?
DM: Oh, you scorched him good, he's reeling. Just how badly did you hurt him?
Player: Well, the maximized damage is 27, and now another 2d12 for the crit... a total of 47! That's got to take him out, right? Oh man, I want that amulet he's wearing...
DM: He screams, he teeters, he... catches himself against the wall, breathing heavily. You see raw terror on his face as he realizes you guys aren't just his next dinner.

Now try to imagine doing that if you rolled all the attacks first and then the damage.

 

[Piratecat]

How sure are you guys about that?

100%. Sorry about that. My rogue players do little happy dances of joy when they crit on a sneak attack.

 

[renau1g]

That's why Daggermaster rocks socks for a Rogue.

 

[mneme]

One thing to keep in mind here is where the damage expressions come from these days. Strikers (usually) do an extra d6 (and 2d6 at heroic) -- this keeps their damage above the curve (as it should be; they're strikers). Sneak Attack does more -- but this is expressly to compensate for rogues using light weapons--they functionally get an extra D6 (putting them back on the damage curve with two handers) at first level, another one at 11th, and a third at 21st just in time to coincide with an Avenger's execution axe (for instance) going to 2d12 brutal 2. So denying rogues their maximized crits sneak attacks hurts them badly in comparison to both other strikers and to the non-striker classes that just wield a big weapon.

 

[Ketjak]

Excuse me? The general recommendation is to roll attack and damage at the same time to speed things up. Every group I've played with does the same thing.

In fact, it's better to roll damage first for multi-target attacks, as you can apply the damage and result to each creature at the time you check whether you hit, e.g.:

Player: That's 16 lightning damage.
Player: 27 vs. this guy.
DM: He bursts into flame and then crumbles to ash.
Player: 24 vs. this guy.
DM: Ooh, he ducked to avoid Marthog's feint and the bolt missed his head by an inch.
Player: Okay, this one... Crit! That's a 20. I definitely hit with a 32, right?
DM: Oh, you scorched him good, he's reeling. Just how badly did you hurt him?
Player: Well, the maximized damage is 27, and now another 2d12 for the crit... a total of 47! That's got to take him out, right? Oh man, I want that amulet he's wearing...
DM: He screams, he teeters, he... catches himself against the wall, breathing heavily. You see raw terror on his face as he realizes you guys aren't just his next dinner.

Now try to imagine doing that if you rolled all the attacks first and then the damage.

I believe you are confusing your group's culture ("general recommendation") with the game's rules.

Mneme, yeah, I've been tossing the math around for a bit, and I had resolved to do some paper (er, Excel) modeling this weekend. Alas, I've had a bit of a pest problem this weekend and haven't had time to focus; I do not doubt the math you cited is good, to be clear.

- Ket

 

[The Human Target]

Yeah thats a rule my group was confused on early on.

I think it was a thread on this very board that set us straight.

 

[Mapache]

No, not quite that simple, as you don't roll damage until you hit.

Right. Specifically, you can choose to use optional damage-adding features and powers, like Hunter's Quarry and Sneak Attack, or a half-orc's Furious Assault and a Slayer's Power Strike, *after* you already know that you crit and thus that the damage you choose to add will be maximized. For the per-encounter powers, that's why you often want to wait until you crit to use them (or until it looks like the fight will be over soon without much chance left to score a crit).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Right. Specifically, you can choose to use optional damage-adding features and powers, like Hunter's Quarry and Sneak Attack, or a half-orc's Furious Assault and a Slayer's Power Strike, *after* you already know that you crit and thus that the damage you choose to add will be maximized. For the per-encounter powers, that's what you often want to wait until you crit to use them (or until it looks like the fight will be over soon without much chance left to score a crit).

TECHNICALLY HQ is even more strange. You can apply HQ damage to the target at any point after you hit them. A very literal reading of the HQ section actually leaves a bunch of questions unanswered. For instance it allows you to apply the HQ damage after you make all your attacks during a turn to any one of them. The damage is called 'extra damage', but it is quite divorced from the regular damage allocation.

Now, realistically the way HQ is used in practice is to treat it just like the other striker bonus die mechanics in effect. Nobody really questions how to do it, but technically it can be somewhat retroactive, which is a bit odd and can cause some strange rules interactions.

 

[TirionAnthion]

Critical Damage

This has also been addressed at least once in a mailbag segment of the official D&D podcast. They discussed the rule and ended by stating that only the dice generated because of the critical are rolled. This helped settle the issue for me. I cannot site the specific podcast as I listen to far too many podcasts. I remember this issue specifically because I appreciated the clarification.

And I know that a podcast by the designers is not an "official" print source but I just thought I would mention it.

 

[TerraDave]

Didn't we just have this thread?


I have only had my rogue crit on a sneak attack and bring a major npc close to death in the first round of an encounter changing that whole section of the adventure once. So far.

The ranger, he is getting max hq at least once a session.