& Sneak Attack: Skills and Proficiencies

[AllisterH]

Personally, after looking at the rogue class's build, I can't shake the feeling that skills are little more than an afterthought. "Excruciating Poke" and "Artful Smack Upside the Head" is much more what the 4e rogue is about.

The funny thing is that using the SWSE system, I actually think DMs/designers will be much more likely to actually use the skills in the game that aren't tumble.

When a rogue keeps his "combat" skills maxed in 3.x, unless you are facing a character with rogue levels himself there'sno point in using a skill check since the rogue will obviously pass.

Ironically, the skill system also meant that at mid-high levels, you didn't use the skill system if you didn't have max levels since you were so hopeless.

For example, try creating a scenario where the entire party (without magic) can get into the castle and make it so that it isn't an auto-success for a 7th level rogue or higher but isn't an auto-failure for a 7th level fighter.

Even though the number of skills have been truncated, I really do believe we will see more use of skills at mid to high levels (and the nerfing of magic will help as well)

 

[Stogoe]

There's no reason not to put "+Int to skill picks" in the skill description if indeed that rule still exists. So I'm just going to go ahead and say that in 4e, a high Int does not give you more skills.

And I have no problem with that.

 

[Lab_Monkey]

There's no reason not to put "+Int to skill picks" in the skill description if indeed that rule still exists. So I'm just going to go ahead and say that in 4e, a high Int does not give you more skills.

And I have no problem with that.

Unless the +Int skills can be taken from a general (i.e., non-class specific) list, and thus would not be appropriate to include in the class description.

 

[kennew142]

3.5 Class Skills: Appraise, Balance, Bluff , Climb, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist , Forgery , Gather Information , Hide , Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (local), Listen , Move Silently , Open Lock , Perform, Profession, Search , Sense Motive , Sleight of Hand , Spot Swim , Tumble, Use Magic Device, and Use Rope.

4E Class Skills: Acrobatics, Athletics, Bluff , Dungeoneering , Insight , Intimidate, Perception, Stealth , Streetwise , Thievery

This is definitely a feature, not a bug.

 

[Tusz]

Unless the +Int skills can be taken from a general (i.e., non-class specific) list, and thus would not be appropriate to include in the class description.

That's what I'm assuming. I see it like this:
-Main skills: these you get automatically for free just from your class training. These are your major.
-Secondary skills: these are the ones you get to choose from your class list, like the four that rogues get. These are your concentration or minor.
-Tertiary skills: these are skills you get from having high intelligence (or possibly from being human), and you can choose whatever for them. These are your elective courses.

 

[Lizard]

This is definitely a feature, not a bug.

Then why not have "Move Around", 'Know Stuff", and "Do Stuff" as skills?

 

[Klaus]

Int is not useful for the 3.5 "smart fighter".

It is. Just become a swashbuckler and/or duelist, and you get to add Int to your AC.

In my own 3.75e mess, I change Weapon Finesse to cover any ability score. And I make versions of it for AC, damage and saves.

 

[mach1.9pants]

Just comparing the Rogue 4E to SWSE to 3E (non-human):

4E Rogue:
No. of 4E skills: "Approximately the skill list is cut in half": 16?18?20?
6 trained skills max (unless INT mod is added elsewhere)
probably 1 feat = 1 more trained skill.
therefore skilled in 6/16 or 37.5%
therefore skilled in 6/18 or 33.3%
therefore skilled in 6/20 or 30%

SWSE Noble:
No. of SWSE skills: 18 (+knowledge)
6+INT trained skills max
1 feat = 1 more class trained skill.
(assuming INT bonus +2, the norm IME)
therefore skilled in 8/18 or 44.5% known

3E Rogue:
No. of 3E skills: 31 (+craft, profession, perform, knowledge, speak language)
8+INT maxed skills max
1 feat = 5 skill points
(assuming INT bonus +2, the norm IME)
therefore skilled in 10/31 or 32.3%

I know there are a lot of assumptions in there. However putting your Rogue points into useful skills (i.e. ignoring those 5 extra 3E skills) a 4E Rogue is not better off, overall, in skills than in 3E. He will be better in untrained skills yes, but his breadth of skills he is 'great' at seems to be similar or less.
SO in conclusion, I really hope that you add the INT modifier to any desired trained skills. I always thought 3E didn't give the Rogue enough with 8/level (I house ruled 10) -I hope that 4E fixes that.

 

[Wormwood]

Then why not have "Move Around", 'Know Stuff", and "Do Stuff" as skills?

I could see taking the skill list down to about 6, one for each stat---so sure, why not?

Of course, I only managed to get the 3.5 skill list down to 10 skills in my last game. I wasn't trying hard enough.

 

[Lizard]

I could see taking the skill list down to about 6, one for each stat---so sure, why not?

It's called the SIEGE Engine. C&C.