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Sneak attack while swallowed?

eamon

Explorer
Hypersmurf said:
Discernible anatomy is something that's true for creatures unless something is stated to the contrary. The rules don't say a bugbear, or a unicorn, or a gray render, or a ravid have discernible anatomies; we assume they have them. The rules don't say a Dire Shark has a discernible anatomy; we assume it has one.
I agree completely with the basic concept, but I don't take it quite as far. A Dire shark has a discernable anatomy; but a dire shark using Swallow Whole is a special case with explicit special rules which state how you can damage and escape from it. Merely because a dire shark has a discernable anatomy by default does not necessarily imply that its gullet does.

I think, ideally, that that guarantee should hold. Ideally, rules would follow a strict hierarchy and all exceptions would be explicit. Unfortunately, I don't feel that the D&D 3.5 rules truly work very well when used in that fashion. There is no real hierarchy in the first place, and it's not clear what's an exception, nor to what extent exceptions hold. What's an (improvement) effect for the purposes of a monk's unarmed strike?

The more rules and the more inferences you need to make, the less sense the results makes. From a simulationist perspective it's as if each rule is an error-introducing abstraction and after a certain amount of abstractions the total error is so great that you simply can't conclude much of anything worthwhile.

Therefore, while I agree that a creature has a discernible anatomy unless stated otherwise, I don't think that a creature's gullet is a creature in and of itself. I don't think that if you can only hit a creature's gullet, and can only see a creature's gullet, that you can really speak of attacking a creature with a discernible anatomy in the normal sense since the rogue simply doesn't have the choice what to attack once swallowed. He can't much benefit from knowing a shark's exterior weaknesses while in the gullet. The rules are silent about his interior.
 

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Nail

First Post
eamon said:
The rules are silent about his interior.
...which is why I disagree with your interpretation. Yours (no sneak attack, 'cause of the special case that the interior of a creature does not have any vital areas (!!)) requires new rules. Mine (a rogue can sneak attack if all normal prereq.s are met) does not require new rules.
 

Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
eamon said:
He can't much benefit from knowing a shark's exterior weaknesses while in the gullet. The rules are silent about his interior.

The rules are silent about the exterior as well, though.

Sneak Attack doesn't say anything about interior or exterior. It merely requires a creature with a discernible anatomy. The dire shark is a creature with a discernible anatomy, and the rules are silent about whether you're attacking from inside or outside.

You're adding a line that isn't there - "Sneak attack works from the outside" - and then pointing out that since you haven't added a corresponding line referencing the inside, the implication is that it's different. But if we don't add the line that isn't there in the first place, there's no difference between the two cases!

-Hyp.
 

eamon

Explorer
I doubt you'll find a rule stating you can't walk on water either. Unless stated explicitly in the rules, I presume the game world functions as ours. Sneak attack has a lot of flavor text and a reasonable explanation. It's clear how it interacts with basic D&D creatures. There isn't much else in there - certainly nothing about gullets, which clearly aren't your everyday creatures.

Granted, I can see your argument that the gullet is still part of the same creature (notably meta-information inferred from the real world), and that there are vital parts probably within reach from within the gullet (again, based on out-of-game reasoning). Unfortunately, it's possible to cut your way out of a D&D gullet without serious consequences for the creature. And then... muscular action (!) closes the hole. Clearly, we're in the realm of fantasy here, which is what D&D is all about.

I don't then feel comfortable inferring much from common sense. In terms of internal consistency, the existance of monsters who's survival strategy includes consuming creatures such that they're exposing themselves to harm just doesn't make sense. Further, there are a number of weak points in the sneak attack argument, using the plain old sneak attack description.

A sneak attack requires that the rogue can discern the anatomy. A rogue in a gullet cannot identify anatomy in the normal fashion, for he can perceive only a small fraction of the creature, if he can perceive anything at all. He most likely can't perceive anything at all, since it's dark, and full of digestive juices. The rogue fails at this first sneak attack prerequisite in three independent ways, therefore; he can't perceive clearly since he's restricted to perceiving the inside of the monster and thus can't fully discern the anatomy. Then, he probably can't perceive much of anything anyhow, due to his surroundings. Finally, it's by no means clear or specified that the natural-armored, whole-creature swallowing gullet even has a discernible anatomy even should the rogue be able to discern anything specifically, especially vital within the gullet itself. Sneak attack says: "The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot." and I don't think that holds.

Secondly (and less conclusively), a sneak attack functions "If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage." In general, a beast which habitually swallows creatures weapons and all, and can survive without serious problems a creature cutting itself out from inside of it, doesn't come across as one which is unable to defend itself effectively when it intentionally and in full awareness swallows a creature. A normal creature surely has a vulnerable gullet, but these specialized creatures which have a gullet so strong it can grapple others, with natural armor and capable of surviving holes, which is in constant contact with the creature at all times by the very nature of the situation makes it unreasonable to assume that they're particularly vulnerable when they swallow a creature or that their weaknesses are reachable from the very spot they most want to place a hostile creature in. A rogue requires that particular vulnerability, requires that her opponent be at a disadvantage to be able to capitalize on that weakness to make a sneak attack. Mechanically, rogues can only sneak attack those that are flanked or that have lost their Dex bonus. Clearly both of these circumstances don't apply.

It deserves extra mention why it's clear that a gullet's absence of dex modifier is not at all the same as being "denied a dex bonus". A creature that has a negative dex modifier, for instance, does not take it into account when determining its gullet's AC, but does take it into account when determining its flatfooted AC, so clearly the concepts are not strictly equivalent. Further, notably all cases in which a Dex bonus is denied, the term denied features prominently, and specifically, only the bonus is lost, never any penalty. A gullet's lack of dexterity bonus (by reason of lack of modifier) no more allows sneak attack than an average human;s lack of dexterity bonus (by reason of average dexterity).

Thus, there are two prerequisites which must hold before a rogue can use sneak attack, and there are multiple reasons to doubt they do. Taken separately, not all of these doubts might each individually conclusively demonstrate that sneak attack does not apply, but as a whole, it just can't be ignored. But more generally, pretending a gullet is functionally no different from an external limb in terms of mechanics will inevitably lead to absurd consequences. Since many rogues will be blind within a gullet, one could presume the gullet has total concealment. Yet concluding the rogue might miss it completely (due to concealment) is absurd - what else could she connect with? If a creature within a gullet attempts a ranged touch attack, say, by means of scorching ray, what AC must they hit? If they miss, what are they hitting? If a creature with swallow whole also has Evasion, can it evade a fireball going off in its gullet on a successful save? For that matter, can it succeed on any reflex save against an effect applying from within it's gullet? Does damage reduction apply to (non-elemental) damage caused by the gullet? Can a being grappled by a gullet be hit by those not being grappled? There may not be one right answer for all the above questions in all situations, but surely they clearly demonstrate that being grappled by a gullet is not merely the same as being grappled by some external limb - and once you make that distinction, why not critically examine sneak attack?

So...

I don't think a game will grind to halt if you allow sneak attack within a gullet, but I don't think it applies or makes much sense. Treating a gullet as if it were nothing special isn't an appropriate precedent to set since there are so many other ways in which it differs from "just any other limb".

Put another way, my player's would cry foul louder if a swallowing creature uses Evasion to evade an internal attack than they would if I were to deny sneak attack - thus, implicitly, they too don't consider the gullet to follow all game mechanics as written.
 
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Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
eamon said:
Granted, I can see your argument that the gullet is still part of the same creature (notably meta-information inferred from the real world)

I don't think any inference is required to determine that the hand, eye, liver, or gullet of Creature X is part of Creature X.

A sneak attack requires that the rogue can discern the anatomy. A rogue in a gullet cannot identify anatomy in the normal fashion, for he can perceive only a small fraction of the creature, if he can perceive anything at all. He most likely can't perceive anything at all, since it's dark, and full of digestive juices.

We're assuming a light source or darkvision on the part of the rogue. If you rule that digestive juices provide concealment despite the darkness issue being overcome, then the rogue cannot sneak attack.

If you don't rule that digestive juices provide concealment, then I disagree that the rogue cannot identify anatomy. With his light source (or darkvision), he can see the interior of the gullet just fine, and I don't see that there's any difference between identifying a target point for a sneak attack on the outside of an aberration you've never seen before, and identifying a target point for a sneak attack on the inside of a dinosaur you've never seen before.

Mechanically, rogues can only sneak attack those that are flanked or that have lost their Dex bonus. Clearly both of these circumstances don't apply.

A creature is denied its Dex bonus against opponents with total concealment. The rogue has total concealment from the Dire Shark; the Dire Shark is thus denied its Dex bonus. As it happens, the Dire Shark's AC with respect to the rogue doesn't include a Dex bonus anyway, but this isn't a problem: "The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not)...".

I'm not arguing that the gullet is vulnerable to sneak attack because its AC does not include a Dex modifier. I'm arguing that it's vulnerable because the rogue has total concealment, and thus the creature is denied a Dex bonus to AC.

-Hyp.
 

ElectricDragon

Explorer
If someone climbs on your back and hangs on, that person is totally concealed from you, yet because he is on your back you can feel him and thus attack him without a miss chance; just ram him into a wall, cuz you know where he is even though you can't see him.

A swallowed whole rogue faces the same problem, the creature can feel exactly where the rogue is even though it is not using sight. ("Gulletsense") There is no concealment that works against touch.

Ciao
Dave
 

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