Sneak-attacking bard

[Mouseferatu]

Okay, this could arguably go into the House Rules forum, since it involves a change to the RAW. However, I'm looking for opinions on how two class features that are in the RAW compare, so I'm putting it here. If that was a mistake, I trust a mod will feel free to move the thread.

No matter how long a guy's been working with D20, it's sometimes still a balancing act. I'm trying to swap out class features, and since they're very different features, I'd like some other opinions on how well the equate.

Specifically, I like the idea of playing a bard who gains sneak attack (like a rogue), but loses the bardic music ability.

My question is, over the course of the full 20 levels of advancement, how many d6 of sneak attack damage would you say that's worth? The full 10, like a rogue? Cut it in half and say 5? Somewhere in-between?

What do you all think?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Hmm...well, I'd say that 10d6 is definitely too many, as the Bard's other abilities beyond Bardic Music, particularly the spells, are more powerful than the Rogue extras. But 5d6 is rather low. I think I'd do 7d6, taking away the dice at level 1, 7, and 13, chosen to discourage Rogues dipping into Bard to get even more Sneak Attack than a straight Rogue, as well as to reward continuing in the class (since the last 3 odd levels all give Sneak Attack)

 

[mikebr99]

What do you all think?

You might want to think about the Arcane Trickster PrC?


Rogue 3
Bard 7
AT 10

7d6 sneak attack & casts as a 17th level bard.

Practiced Spellcaster is a good thing...


Mike

 

[ForceUser]

Specifically, I like the idea of playing a bard who gains sneak attack (like a rogue), but loses the bardic music ability.

My question is, over the course of the full 20 levels of advancement, how many d6 of sneak attack damage would you say that's worth? The full 10, like a rogue? Cut it in half and say 5? Somewhere in-between?

What do you all think?

For the record, if I allowed a player to trade something for sneak attack it would be spells, not bardic music. I think the music is what makes the 3E bard a bard, not the spells. That said, I wouldn't have a problem giving bards the full 10 like a rogue, since sneak attack is so conditional, much like bardic music. Sneak attack is arguably "better," but that's entirely subjective and based on the campaign. For instance, if the DM's game centers around lots of warriors fighting undead, then inspire courage is far more useful than sneak attack. In a four-person wilderness campaign with only one warrior, sneak attack would probably be the preferred ability. In a city-based campaign, both bardic music and sneak attack rock. I think what you're doing is fine, Mouse.

 

[Shadeus]

This is a good exercise. Maybe a list of pros and cons:

Sneak attack:

Pros:
- extra damage an unlimited number of times per day

Cons:
- a variety of creatures are immune
- requires a specific set of circumstances to be invoked

Bardic music:

Pros:
- A lot of songs including inspire courage, inspire competence, fascinate, countersong (rarely used), suggestion, inspire greatness, song of freedom, inspire heroics, mass suggestion
- Other feats are available with other songs.

Cons:
- limited uses per day

Bardic music has a lot of flexibility to it so you can use. If your friend gets turned to stone, sneak attack isn't going to do you lots of good (except to get revenge for your friend!) On the other hand, it's the main "bread and butter" of the rogue. You can't just give a full 10d6 sneak attack because then they out shine the rogue in that area. I would say 7d6 or 8d6 would be around right.

So a 3/4 - spellcaster, sneak attack guy with skills. Hmm, sounds a lot like an assassin without the death attack or poison use.

 

[Mouseferatu]

So a 3/4 - spellcaster, sneak attack guy with skills. Hmm, sounds a lot like an assassin without the death attack or poison use.

Doesn't it?

Definitely appreciating the feedback so far.

 

[Gez]

Okay, this could arguably go into the House Rules forum, since it involves a change to the RAW. However, I'm looking for opinions on how two class features that are in the RAW compare, so I'm putting it here. If that was a mistake, I trust a mod will feel free to move the thread.

I'm not a mod but as far as I know, discussion on the rules is fine there. You're not posting an alt. bard (though you may be at the end of the thread), so it's not for the house rules forum.

I like the idea of modifying the bard a bit. Dropping bardic music to replace it with sneak attack would be perfect for "Zilargo Gnome Racial Substitution Levels" in an Eberron campaign... Music is the one capacity of bards that don't fit Zilargo gnomes.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I'm not a mod but as far as I know, discussion on the rules is fine there. You're not posting an alt. bard (though you may be at the end of the thread), so it's not for the house rules forum.

I like the idea of modifying the bard a bit. Dropping bardic music to replace it with sneak attack would be perfect for "Zilargo Gnome Racial Substitution Levels" in an Eberron campaign... Music is the one capacity of bards that don't fit Zilargo gnomes.

That's a pretty cool thought, actually. It's not what I was thinking of doing with this particular character, but you're right--it may fit the gnomes of Zilargo better than the current option.

 

[Rystil Arden]

That's a pretty cool thought, actually. It's not what I was thinking of doing with this particular character, but you're right--it may fit the gnomes of Zilargo better than the current option.

I agree. I think it is certainly be the case that it would be fair to swap out certain levels of Bardic Music for Sneak Attack at only the substitution levels, since it would never ramp up anywhere near 10d6 that way. So maybe substitution levels at 3, 9, and 15 to replace all of the 'Inspires' other than Courage with Sneak Attack, while leaving all of the manipulation songs that fit well with Zilargo gnomes. Perhaps add in extra skill points at those three levels as well to sweeten the deal.