Sneak Attacks on Rays
- Thread starter Eccles
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Artoomis
First Post
Mr.Binx said:
Sorry - missed this post in the wild flurry of other posts.
Actually, you ready an action to specify what you are trying to stop, really. Since you get to act BEFORE something, what you are really trying to do, it seems to me, is prevent something from happening. You are quickly reacting to what someone is just starting to do so you can respond BEFORE they can get it done.
Please tell me if you disagree with THAT.
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Mr.Binx
First Post
Artoomis said:
np.
Well, you're not always trying to impede an action. Sometimes you may want to help some action. Say I ready an action to open a door when a fellow party member is about to come in contact with it as he does a full run. This allows me to take a partial action during my friend's turn to open the door and allow him to continue his full run movement through the door after my partial action has been resolved. This could happen when an invisible wizard opened a door for a half-dead rogue so that he could tumble away from the minotaur barbarian that was beating him senseless, full-run through a hallway of manned murder-holes, and out of the line of fire of those murder holes by taking a 90 degree turn granted by Fleet of Foot (S&S feat) to run around the corner at the end of the hall. The archers on the other side had delayed their actions so they would get their full allotment of attacks against who-ever opened the door and the majority would have had full line of fire on the poor rogue. So had the wizard opened the door on his action then the archers could have decided to take their delayed turns as soon as his action was over. Since it was still the rogue's action and they had delayed, the wizard's readied action saved the rogue's life for a few more moments. The way you're seeing can still be applicable by switching semantics: in this case you would be trying to STOP the rogue BEFORE he runs head first into the door. How's that?
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Artoomis
First Post
Mr.Binx said:
np.
Well, you're not always trying to impede an action. Sometimes you may want to help some action. Say I ready an action to open a door when a fellow party member is about to come in contact with it as he does a full run. This allows me to take a partial action during my friend's turn to open the door and allow him to continue his full run movement through the door after my partial action has been resolved. This could happen when an invisible wizard opened a door for a half-dead rogue so that he could tumble away from the minotaur barbarian that was beating him senseless, full-run through a hallway of manned murder-holes, and out of the line of fire of those murder holes by taking a 90 degree turn granted by Fleet of Foot (S&S feat) to run around the corner at the end of the hall. The archers archers on the other side had delaye their actions so they would get their full allotment of attacks against who-ever opened the door and the majority would have had full line of fire on the poor rogue. So had the wizard opened the door on his action then the archers could have decided to take their delayed turns as soon as his action was over. Since it was still the rogue's action and they had delayed, the wizard's readied action save the rogue. The way you're seeing can still be applicable by switching semantics: in this case you would be trying to stop the rogue before he runs head first into the door. How's that?
Whew.
Well, okay, sometimes you are trying to help, but it amounts to the same thing.
BUT, your action is resolved BEFORE your buddies action.
In this case, the door gets opened just BEFORE the Rogure's turn, not really during it.
In this case, you opened the door as your buddy begins running.
I'm not sure exactly how I'd strictly apply the rules here, but I'd probably let you get away with it. The archers specifically were trying to get really good shots (delayed, rather that readied), so I'd probably let you get away with quickly running past them.
Mr.Binx
First Post
Ok, now it gets worse. Here's another scenario, albeit just as unlikely, that describes a bit more than the last:
--------------------
You are a sorceror and are with a second sorceror (hereafter to be reffered to as sorceror#2). You, Sorceror#2, and both familiars are all mindlinked so you can all communicate telepathically. Sorceror#2 is in a 10ft by 10ft room with 2 goblins. You are standing outside the door to this room in an adjacent 5ft wide, 10ft long room. You have arcane locked the door so you are the only one who can open it. Sorceror#2 and his familiar which sits on his shoulder are both immune to fire so Sorceror#2 is going to fill the room with his very last spell: a fireball. Both goblins are rogues though so they have a good chance of evading the spell. Both goblins go on last initiative. On your initiative you ready an action to open the door when sorceror#2's familiar lets out a screech. Sorceror#2's familiar readies an action to let out a screech immediately after Sorceror#2 casts a fireball. Your familiar has readied an action to close the door with a Ring of Telekinesis that you have equipped him with as soon as sorceror#2 passes through the doorway. On sorceror#2's action he successfully combat casts a fireball and drops one of the goblins. His familiar immediately lets out a screech as per it's readied action since it is now immediately after the fireball has been cast. Since the the screech triggers your readied action you reticently open the door. Sorceror#2, who hasn't finished his entire turn yet, finishes up his actions by moving 5ft through the door. Since Sorceror#2 has now moved through the door that event triggers your familiars readied action and it uses the Ring of Telekinesis to quickly close the door. It's now the remaining goblin's turn so he decides to fume and beat on the door in rage.
--------------------
Pardon the absurdness of the scenario, but we are dealing with fantasy after all.
Now in this example, the majority of the readied actions are happening in the middle of Sorceror#2's turn. The readied actions are not all necessarily happening before a specified event (because they haven't happened yet) but they are happening immediately when a pre-specified condition has been met whether or not it happens to be in the middle of someone else's actions. Essentially time stops when the triggering condition is met and does not begin flowing again until the subsequent pre-specified partial action has been performed.
--------------------
You are a sorceror and are with a second sorceror (hereafter to be reffered to as sorceror#2). You, Sorceror#2, and both familiars are all mindlinked so you can all communicate telepathically. Sorceror#2 is in a 10ft by 10ft room with 2 goblins. You are standing outside the door to this room in an adjacent 5ft wide, 10ft long room. You have arcane locked the door so you are the only one who can open it. Sorceror#2 and his familiar which sits on his shoulder are both immune to fire so Sorceror#2 is going to fill the room with his very last spell: a fireball. Both goblins are rogues though so they have a good chance of evading the spell. Both goblins go on last initiative. On your initiative you ready an action to open the door when sorceror#2's familiar lets out a screech. Sorceror#2's familiar readies an action to let out a screech immediately after Sorceror#2 casts a fireball. Your familiar has readied an action to close the door with a Ring of Telekinesis that you have equipped him with as soon as sorceror#2 passes through the doorway. On sorceror#2's action he successfully combat casts a fireball and drops one of the goblins. His familiar immediately lets out a screech as per it's readied action since it is now immediately after the fireball has been cast. Since the the screech triggers your readied action you reticently open the door. Sorceror#2, who hasn't finished his entire turn yet, finishes up his actions by moving 5ft through the door. Since Sorceror#2 has now moved through the door that event triggers your familiars readied action and it uses the Ring of Telekinesis to quickly close the door. It's now the remaining goblin's turn so he decides to fume and beat on the door in rage.
--------------------
Pardon the absurdness of the scenario, but we are dealing with fantasy after all.
Now in this example, the majority of the readied actions are happening in the middle of Sorceror#2's turn. The readied actions are not all necessarily happening before a specified event (because they haven't happened yet) but they are happening immediately when a pre-specified condition has been met whether or not it happens to be in the middle of someone else's actions. Essentially time stops when the triggering condition is met and does not begin flowing again until the subsequent pre-specified partial action has been performed.
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Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Okay, I've thought some about it, and I think there's a couple of different issues we're looking at.
First, can a readied action go off in the middle of someone else's action?
All the examples I can find in the PHB and DMG allow this.
-Mialee readies an action to "cast charm person spell at the first hobgoblin to come within 25 feet". This is triggered part of the way through the hobgoblin's charge; after the readied action goes off, the hobgoblin continues moving. (p134 PhB)
-Tordek readies an action to "strike any foe who comes into the area he threatens." One of the charging hobgoblins finishes the movement part of the charge, and before the hob can attack, Tordek drops him. (ibid)
-"I shoot the first enemy that comes through the door" is acceptable (DMG, p64). Note that, to come through the door, the enemy must open the door (MEA) and move at least 5 feet (move action).
-Disrupting spellcasting definitely happens in the middle of an action -- after it's begun, but before it's completed.
So we've seen the interruption of a charge, of a move, and of a spellcasting. In all these cases, the readied action goes off at some point after the triggering event begins but before it ends. In the case of the charge, we see that we can choose at what point during the action we want to interrupt things: Mialee interrupts it when the charger is 25' away, and Tordek interrupts it when the charger is 5' away but hasn't yet attacked.
We also see that it can be the result of, not merely the intent of, an action that triggers a readied action. Tordek wasn't interested in whether a hobgoblin was TRYING to charge him; he was only interested in whether some action an enemy took brought it into the area he threatened. Neither one mentioned the specific action (i.e., charging) that resulted in the conditions for their triggers' being met.
Given that, Artoomis, I really am confused where you get the idea that partial actions must come entirely before the action that triggers it. I also don't get where you say that it's actions, not conditions, that must trigger a readied action.
The only thing I can see on your side of the argument is the phrase that "the partial action comes before the action that triggers it." I think that would more precisely read, "the partial action is resolved before the end of the action that triggers it." Further, I think it's really in there to clarify what happens to the readier's initiative in subsequent rounds.
Interpreting it the way you seem to be interpreting it makes the examples not work.
Daniel
First, can a readied action go off in the middle of someone else's action?
All the examples I can find in the PHB and DMG allow this.
-Mialee readies an action to "cast charm person spell at the first hobgoblin to come within 25 feet". This is triggered part of the way through the hobgoblin's charge; after the readied action goes off, the hobgoblin continues moving. (p134 PhB)
-Tordek readies an action to "strike any foe who comes into the area he threatens." One of the charging hobgoblins finishes the movement part of the charge, and before the hob can attack, Tordek drops him. (ibid)
-"I shoot the first enemy that comes through the door" is acceptable (DMG, p64). Note that, to come through the door, the enemy must open the door (MEA) and move at least 5 feet (move action).
-Disrupting spellcasting definitely happens in the middle of an action -- after it's begun, but before it's completed.
So we've seen the interruption of a charge, of a move, and of a spellcasting. In all these cases, the readied action goes off at some point after the triggering event begins but before it ends. In the case of the charge, we see that we can choose at what point during the action we want to interrupt things: Mialee interrupts it when the charger is 25' away, and Tordek interrupts it when the charger is 5' away but hasn't yet attacked.
We also see that it can be the result of, not merely the intent of, an action that triggers a readied action. Tordek wasn't interested in whether a hobgoblin was TRYING to charge him; he was only interested in whether some action an enemy took brought it into the area he threatened. Neither one mentioned the specific action (i.e., charging) that resulted in the conditions for their triggers' being met.
Given that, Artoomis, I really am confused where you get the idea that partial actions must come entirely before the action that triggers it. I also don't get where you say that it's actions, not conditions, that must trigger a readied action.
The only thing I can see on your side of the argument is the phrase that "the partial action comes before the action that triggers it." I think that would more precisely read, "the partial action is resolved before the end of the action that triggers it." Further, I think it's really in there to clarify what happens to the readier's initiative in subsequent rounds.
Interpreting it the way you seem to be interpreting it makes the examples not work.
Daniel
As promised... the response from WOTC questions which was in my inbox this am.
****************************************
After the first attack(swing or whatever) you lose the invisibility, so if you had additional attacks that round, you would be seen and the defender would have his Dex bonus.
Thanks and Happy Gaming!
***********************************************************
Alex W.
Wizards of the Coast - Game Support
Website: http://www.wizards.com
Game Support E-Mail: custserv@wizards.com
Game Support Phone: 1-800-324-6496
Monday through Friday, 9 AM - 7 PM PST
Corporate Phone: (425) 226-6500
Please quote this e-mail in any reply.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rushing, Steve W. Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 1:21 PM
To: 'questions@wizards.com'
Subject: Invisibility timing question for DND 3e
In DND 3e, do the effects for invisibility dissappear immediately, as soon
as the invisibile character attacks, or do they linger until the end of his
turn?
Example specifically on point:
A rogue who is invisible makes one swing at a fighter. Since the fighter
cannot see him, he gets no dex bonus, the rogue gets a +2 and the attack is
a sneak attack. lets say that first swing hits. Is the rogue visible now for
all purposes, some purposes, or is he still invisible for some purposes or
all purposes?
Some example of why this matters.
The rogue at this instant can choose to use a full attack to get a second or
third swings. Are these also sneaks or is the "now visible" rogue no longer
denying the dex bonus?
The rogue at this chance can move away instead, drawing an AoO and that 50%
miss chance were he still to be considered invisible would be a potential
life saver.
The fighter might have a readied action to swing when the rogue becomes
visible. If the rogue is still considered invisible, the fighter might not
get this swing off until after the rogue moves away.
We have played that the first attack immediately negates the invisibility.
From that point on, including any other attacks during that turn, the rogue
is visible and thus loses all benefits of invisibility including the deny
dex bonus and concealment.
of course, improved invis would be a different matter.
****************************************
After the first attack(swing or whatever) you lose the invisibility, so if you had additional attacks that round, you would be seen and the defender would have his Dex bonus.
Thanks and Happy Gaming!
***********************************************************
Alex W.
Wizards of the Coast - Game Support
Website: http://www.wizards.com
Game Support E-Mail: custserv@wizards.com
Game Support Phone: 1-800-324-6496
Monday through Friday, 9 AM - 7 PM PST
Corporate Phone: (425) 226-6500
Please quote this e-mail in any reply.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rushing, Steve W. Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 1:21 PM
To: 'questions@wizards.com'
Subject: Invisibility timing question for DND 3e
In DND 3e, do the effects for invisibility dissappear immediately, as soon
as the invisibile character attacks, or do they linger until the end of his
turn?
Example specifically on point:
A rogue who is invisible makes one swing at a fighter. Since the fighter
cannot see him, he gets no dex bonus, the rogue gets a +2 and the attack is
a sneak attack. lets say that first swing hits. Is the rogue visible now for
all purposes, some purposes, or is he still invisible for some purposes or
all purposes?
Some example of why this matters.
The rogue at this instant can choose to use a full attack to get a second or
third swings. Are these also sneaks or is the "now visible" rogue no longer
denying the dex bonus?
The rogue at this chance can move away instead, drawing an AoO and that 50%
miss chance were he still to be considered invisible would be a potential
life saver.
The fighter might have a readied action to swing when the rogue becomes
visible. If the rogue is still considered invisible, the fighter might not
get this swing off until after the rogue moves away.
We have played that the first attack immediately negates the invisibility.
From that point on, including any other attacks during that turn, the rogue
is visible and thus loses all benefits of invisibility including the deny
dex bonus and concealment.
of course, improved invis would be a different matter.
Mr.Binx
First Post
Petrosian said:
An amazingly well-worded response from customer service. I'm surprised. The last time I sent an e-mail to customer service I reaceived an e-mail that had horrible spelling, was in all caps, and made almost absolutely no sense whatsoever. I stopped e-mailing customer service after that. Guess it just depends on who reads your e-mail, neh? But I digress.
I agree with the line of reasoning in this response. During combat you're on your defensive and only one sucker punch is likely to get through before your guard goes up. This would follow the line of reasoning for impromptu sneak attack and similar special abilities that are used in conjunction with sneak attack. Also, it should be pointed out that if the invisibility is dropped by an attack that was caused during a period of non-combat then the victim is flat-footed and the rogue's action is counted as a surprise round, thus initiating combat, and everyone involved rolls initiative as normal. If the rogue is able to get initiative before his opponents then he will be able to make his full allotment of attacks as sneak attacks since the flatfooted characters will not regain their dexterity bonuses until their initative. So if you are going to drop your invisibility to gain a sneak attack make sure you're either flanking the victim or are outside of combat. Otherwise your opening yourself up to attacks for one sneak attack when you could be milking the situation for more. 
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