sniff sniff...Do I smell 2nd edition mistakes?

[Crothian]

I am not seeing much "power creep". I think there were some notable offenders (BoED, anyone?), but nothing resembling a trend.

I can see how having the design team change is affecting their consistency. But that's still better than the 2e era, when most of the supplements were freelanced out. The usability of any two 3e products with one another is much better than in 2e, where the design philosophy seemed to continually change and there was very shaky quality control. The current situation is somewhat better now.

But at the same time I think the creativity is less. With the books being so general they just don't have those cool ideas in them that many second edtion books did.

 

[Desdichado]

Has anyone else noticed this trend? Do you feel the same?

I disagree that power creep is a significant issue, and I also disagree that the Complete and Race books are that bad. Heck, the Complete books are vastly superior to the 3.0 splats they replaced.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Yep.. Same deal.

I agree wholeheartedly that WotC is treading that path.
Just for fun let's look at the release schedules over the past few years:

2005: (14 to date)
Battlefield Adventures
Champions of Ruin Accessory Forgotten Realms
City of Splendors: Waterdeep Accessory Forgotten Realms
Complete Adventurer Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Dungeon Master’s Guide II Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Explorer’s Handbook Accessory Eberron
Five Nations Accessory Eberron
Lords of Madness: The Book of Aberrations Accessory
Lost Empires of Faerûn Accessory Forgotten Realms
Maelstrom Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Races of Eberron Accessory Eberron
Races of the Wild Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Sandstorm Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Weapons of Legacy Accessory Dungeons & Dragons

2004: (18)
Complete Arcane Accessory Dungeons & Dragons Richard Baker 11/2004
Complete Divine Accessory Dungeons & Dragons David Noonan 05/2004
Eberron Campaign Setting Accessory Eberron
Expanded Psionics Handbook Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Frostburn Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Libris Mortis: The Book of Undead Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Monster Manual III Accessory Dungeons & Dragons 09/2004
Planar Handbook Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Player's Guide to Faerûn Accessory Forgotten Realms
Races of Destiny Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Races of Stone Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Serpent Kingdoms Accessory Forgotten Realms
Sharn: City of Towers Accessory Eberron Keith Baker and James Wyatt 11/2004
Shining South Accessory Forgotten Realms Thomas Reid 10/2004
Unearthed Arcana Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
+3 badly updated core books.

2001: (11)
Defenders of the Faith Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Enemies and Allies Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting Accessory Forgotten Realms
Lords of Darkness Accessory Forgotten Realms
Magic of Faerun Accessory Forgotten Realms
Manual of the Planes Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Monster Compendium: Monsters of Faerûn Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Oriental Adventures Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Song and Silence Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Sword and Fist Accessory Dungeons & Dragons
Tome and Blood: A Guidebook Accessory Dungeons & Dragons

All of the above is from the WotC main site D&D section by year.

I'm ignoring the adventures and map folios and so forth which have likewise ramped up in production.
ANYONE can tell from the above that the rate has gone up, doubled even.
The quality has gone down, way down, from my perspective. It is like 2E all over again. Except 2E was better balanced than anything 3.5.

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

ANYONE can tell from the above that the rate has gone up, doubled even.
The quality has gone down, way down, from my perspective. It is like 2E all over again. Except 2E was better balanced than anything 3.5.

We must have played different 2nd Editions.

 

[DungeonMaster]

What?

Heck, the Complete books are vastly superior to the 3.0 splats they replaced.

Compared to 630 billion damage Hulking hurler? Or to divine metamagic persistant (like persistant timestop)? Or to a rogue with a ring of blinking polymorphed into a hydra with a wraithform spell - i.e. 120d6 sneak attack damage a round all touch attacks?
Or a maximized empowered shivering touch dealing 27 dexterity damage no save?
In terms of shoddy design, balance, editing mistakes and art they're no different if not worse.

They have a better binding, granted. That's about it.

 

[DungeonMaster]

We must have played different 2nd Editions.

2E was not perfect, no edition was perfect. 3rd edition and it's stepchild are worse, by leaps and bounds.
What's the worst you can do with 2nd edition out of curiosity to see if it matches up?

 

[Crothian]

Compared to 630 billion damage Hulking hurler? Or to divine metamagic persistant (like persistant timestop)? Or to a rogue with a ring of blinking polymorphed into a hydra with a wraithform spell - i.e. 120d6 sneak attack damage a round all touch attacks?
Or a maximized empowered shivering touch dealing 27 dexterity damage no save?
In terms of shoddy design, balance, editing mistakes and art they're no different if not worse..

your talking about the extremes and many of them are pretty high level examples. some are in the rules gray area. But the down to earth what people play uses of the books, third edition is better then second in balance.

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

What's the worst you can do with 2nd edition out of curiosity to see if it matches up?

I can try and play a thief or bard.

Or, alternately, I can try and play a single class fighter in a party with a multi-class elven fighter mage. It's FUN being 10th level in one class when your buddy is 9th level in two, and it only gets MORE FUN as you gain more levels.

 

[Evilhalfling]

2E was not perfect, no edition was perfect. 3rd edition and it's stepchild are worse, by leaps and bounds.
What's the worst you can do with 2nd edition out of curiosity to see if it matches up?

Well the best I can do is a 1st level Drow bladesinger/mage with the wild talent - Disintegrate
in a party of 1st level characters. Okay so he has a 20% xp penalty - for being drow
Or from Darksun - a thrikreen with 19 str = 4 attacks all +4 to hit, +7 damage. I have actually played with the 2nd one in a party. (im just glad his wild talent was nearly useless)

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Compared to 630 billion damage Hulking hurler? Or to divine metamagic persistant (like persistant timestop)? Or to a rogue with a ring of blinking polymorphed into a hydra with a wraithform spell - i.e. 120d6 sneak attack damage a round all touch attacks?
Or a maximized empowered shivering touch dealing 27 dexterity damage no save?
In terms of shoddy design, balance, editing mistakes and art they're no different if not worse.

They have a better binding, granted. That's about it.

The Hulking Hurler requires extensive character optimization to work. Even at his munchkiny best, he's a one-trick pony. He hits things and they die. Beyond that, he's worthless.
He's also drawing on sources well outside the Complete books, some of which were 3.0. :\

Polymorph and ring of blinking are both core, last I checked. No power creep there. Wraithform makes them touch attacks. As if a 20th-level rogue with a hydra's strength bonus isn't going to hit anyway? :\

Maximized Empowered shivering touch dealing 27 dexterity damage no save... which is the same effect as Power Word Stun in most battles. Oh, and let's not forget that this is probably sudden, which means once per day. :\

The hurler is genuinely broken, albeit in a totally specialized way. The other two are above average, but not even dominant. Anyway, everything relevant about the rogue is core!

The art is generally worse now than in 2e, and in some cases the editing. The balance is generally better, and the design work is so far above the 2e level it's not even funny. For instance, there actually being a design, rather than what author-of-the-week-#343 decides would be a wicked cool variant rule about an ogre's damage. For his book on Halflings of Athas. Oh, and that variant rule? It's now canon and gets referenced in a Planescape book about devils two years later. Yeah.