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D&D 5E So 5 Intelligence Huh

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
This gets at the heart of the difference between the two sides in the debate. You are talking about practical impossibilities, because you are focused on what is probably the case. Which is fair. But then you're turning it into a claim that your way must be true, and the only possible answer, because it is the most likely.

We are talking philoslphy. You're talking probability.

An extremely unlikely result may be extremely unlikely, but it illustrates that your black & white assertions exist in continuous spectrum of gray.

Odds so low that they are effectively 0 are not worth even a second of consideration. Arguments that rely on them are absurdly unrealistic, which is why I am asking you, and [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] now, if you have any reasonable arguments to back up your claims.
 

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Guest 6801328

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Odds so low that they are effectively 0 are not worth even a second of consideration. Arguments that rely on them are absurdly unrealistic, which is why I am asking you, and @pemerton now, if you have any reasonable arguments to back up your claims.

Do you understand that the "absurdly unrealistic" odds are meant to demonstrate that the absolute, no-argument, black & white claim you are making is untenable?

What about a character with 19 Int? Could *he* be the greatest Investigator ever, by a combination of double expertise, lucky rolls, and a penchant for seeking out mysteries and trying to solve them, despite the existence of 20 Int characters who are more interested in summoning demons than solving murders? Of course it is. So what about Int 18? Are you going to argue that one more point of Int is too much? (I hope not...)

You see where this is going, I hope. And that therefore your argument that Sherlock Holmes' genius is based on high Int has cracks in it, and from there the demise of the argument that "An Int 5 character HAS to be dumb" inevitably proceeds.

Sure, it makes absolute sense that an Int 5 Character is stupid. Nobody is arguing that that isn't a roleplaying layup. But it doesn't have to be true and is not the only way to roleplay it.



EDIT: And, of course, you are free to simply reject the argument because it conflicts with your beliefs. All kinds of people refuse to admit the planet is warming, or that GMOs are a good thing, or that professional wrestling is fake. And the world keeps turning anyway.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Do you understand that the "absurdly unrealistic" odds are meant to demonstrate that the absolute, no-argument, black & white claim you are making is untenable?

That's simply not true. Odds so remote that they effectively can be treated as impossible, can be treated as impossible. They don't turn things into grey. Grey areas are ones that can be viewed multiple ways or have rather significant chances of going in multiple directions.

What about a character with 19 Int? Could *he* be the greatest Investigator ever, by a combination of double expertise, lucky rolls, and a penchant for seeking out mysteries and trying to solve them, despite the existence of 20 Int characters who are more interested in summoning demons than solving murders? Of course it is. So what about Int 18? Are you going to argue that one more point of Int is too much? (I hope not...)

A single +1 is not enough to make a visible difference to the world. Without the math and rolls being visible to the game world, an 18 would be indistinguishable from a 20. +2 or more would be noticed, though.

If I were modeling Holmes, I would give him an 18 or 19 int, not a 20. Moriarty is better by a hair in my opinion.

You see where this is going, I hope. And that therefore your argument that Sherlock Holmes' genius is based on high Int has cracks in it, and from there the demise of the argument that "An Int 5 character HAS to be dumb" inevitably proceeds.

And that is a Slippery Slope. An 18 int is reasonable, therefore a 16 int is reasonable, therefore a 14 int is reasonable, on down to 5 is reasonable. 5 is patently absurd. Classic Slippery Slope argument.
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Ok, so where is the cut-off between reasonable and unreasonable?

For Sherlock Holmes or the D&D equivalent? 18 int. Anything lower and the difference between him and the best is too noticeable. Also, once you hit 16, the number of 16 int NPCs in the world vs. the number of 18+ int PCs is extreme, so virtually impossible that there wouldn't be a 16 int investigator or 20 with double proficiency somewhere.

That's something your 5 int investigator would have deduced if he wasn't so stupid ;)
 

BoldItalic

First Post
It occurs to me that clerics could make quite good detectives without needing much Int at all. Basically, you ask the gods whodunnit and they tell you.

Let's consider what a Knowledge Cleric with an Int of 5 could do.

Class Features
Channel Divinity: Read Thoughts - useful for interrogating suspects and suggesting they confess
Visions of the Past - read murder weapons and scenes of crime

Spells
Hold Person - for making arrests
Locate Object - to find the murder weapon
Zone of Truth - for interrogating suspects
Speak with Dead - useful if the victim can identify the murderer
Locate Creature - find where the culprit is hiding
Commune - ask the gods to confirm your suspicions about the perpetrator

None of those relies on Int checks. They all use Wis, one way or another.

Sherlock Holmes doesn't strike me as particularly holy, but there are plenty of crime-solving clergymen and monks in fiction. So an Int 5 character with a reasonably high Wisdom score could legitimately be role-played as a highly successful detective in this way too.
 
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Guest 6801328

Guest
For Sherlock Holmes or the D&D equivalent? 18 int. Anything lower and the difference between him and the best is too noticeable. Also, once you hit 16, the number of 16 int NPCs in the world vs. the number of 18+ int PCs is extreme, so virtually impossible that there wouldn't be a 16 int investigator or 20 with double proficiency somewhere.

That's something your 5 int investigator would have deduced if he wasn't so stupid ;)

Well, I myself have deduced that if you think 17 vs 18 is a firm barrier then we are speaking different languages.

I will cede this debate to your undeniable genius.
 

pemerton

Legend
Ok, so where is the cut-off between reasonable and unreasonable?
For Sherlock Holmes or the D&D equivalent? 18 int. Anything lower and the difference between him and the best is too noticeable. Also, once you hit 16, the number of 16 int NPCs in the world vs. the number of 18+ int PCs is extreme
First, I agree with Elfcrusher about the argument structure. That's why, upthread, I pointed out that the 5 INT version of Sherlock Holmes isn't crucial, and that the real issue is just about falling short of maximum INT.

Second, I already posted an example upthread where the toughest dwarf around starts play with 16 STR and CON, and at 30th level has "only" 26 STR and 20 CON whereas the maximum stat at 30th level is 30, and the maximum STR/CON pair is 30/28. There is no in principle reason why, in my game, it couldn't have been a 16 INT detective rather than a 16 STR/CON tough guy.

Third, I reject the NPC claim. In my game, there are not NPC dwarves out there who are tougher, other than perhaps Moradin; and other than divine beings its been clear since 15th level that there are no tougher dwarves, and indeed that has probably been true since 11th level. (Even though, at 11th level, the character had "only" 19 STR and (I think) 17 CON.)

What has made it the case that this character is the toughest dwarf? He is the one who led a group of (NPC) dwarf scouts to safety, when an angel from Moradin appeared to them and told them that a warrior priest was at hand to rescue them after they had been beaten nearly to death by hobgoblins. (This was at 11th level.) Then, when he led them to a friendly town he was recognised by the baron of that town as "Lord Derrik of the Dwarfholm of the east", and by the local dwarven community as their natural leader. Not long after that, he and his companions finally destroyed the hobgoblin armies threatening the town, with Derrik facing down multiple phalanxes of hobgoblin in the course of this (as well as other monsters, like a chimera and a three-headed dragon). And then, when Derrik's dwarven thrower artefact was being reforged into a great two-handed maul, he was able to shove his hands into the forge to hold it down, despite the immense heat and arcane energies, so that the dwarven artificers could take control of it with their tongs.

Since then, he has performed such feats as being the main wrecker of Torog's Soul Abattoir, leaping onto the back of an ancient white dragon and pinning its wings, so that it crashed to the ground, and single-handedly taking on and defeating a dojo of the best githzerai monks after falling through the Elemental Chaos to land on their practice field. These all reinforce, in play and in the shared fiction that play generates, that there is no dwarf about tougher than this character.

It's simply not relevant that a D&D player in the real world could, if s/he wanted to, build a dwarven character whose stats and capabilities made him even tougher than this PC. Because no such character has actually been build and played in the campaign. Similarly, the fact that the mechanics of the game would permit there to be some tougher NPC is not relevant; no actual such NPC has figured in the game, nor performed feats of toughness comparable to those which this PC has performed.

All of what I have just described could, in principle, be true of a detective PC. When it comes to actually playing a game of D&D, being the best detective around is not about holding up your character sheet and pointing to some numbers: it's about how the play of the game reveals your PC to be the best detective around. Of course those numbers (and other resources) written on the sheet are important as inputs to play; but they are not the outputs. The outputs are events in the shared fiction.

*******************

Perhaps, for those who play in very detailed campaign settings (eg FR), where it is taken for granted that there are a whole host of NPCs who importance and deeds rivals those of the PCs, the above characterisation of D&D play does not resonate. Maybe, in such a game, it is obvious that even if - in play - the character with the 16 INT is the one who performs all the deductions, unravels all the dastardly plots, etc, there is nevertheless some NPC detective off screen who, if s/he had been on screen, would have done the same with even greater facility.

If that is how you play D&D, you nevertheless need to recognise that not everyone plays in that fashion, and that for some of us the shared fiction is primarily the result of playing the game, rather than something whose content is given independently of and prior to play. Even if, in your style of D&D, the 16 INT PC could never be Holmes because there is some cleverer 18 or 20 INT detective off-screen solving even more mysteries more quickly and more thoroughly, for those of us who play in the way I have described, it is quite feasible for the actual play of the game to reveal the 16 INT PC to be the greatest detective around (just as, in my campaign, has occurred with the considerably-less-than-max-statted-but-nevertheless-toughest-dwarf-around).
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It occurs to me that clerics could make quite good detectives without needing much Int at all. Basically, you ask the gods whodunnit and they tell you.

Let's consider what a Knowledge Cleric with an Int of 5 could do.

Class Features
Channel Divinity: Read Thoughts - useful for interrogating suspects and suggesting they confess
Visions of the Past - read murder weapons and scenes of crime

Spells
Hold Person - for making arrests
Locate Object - to find the murder weapon
Zone of Truth - for interrogating suspects
Speak with Dead - useful if the victim can identify the murderer
Locate Creature - find where the culprit is hiding
Commune - ask the gods to confirm your suspicions about the perpetrator

None of those relies on Int checks. They all use Wis, one way or another.

Sherlock Holmes doesn't strike me as particularly holy, but there are plenty of crime-solving clergymen and monks in fiction. So an Int 5 character with a reasonably high Wisdom score could legitimately be role-played as a highly successful detective in this way too.

Sure, but the instant you bring magic into it, they are no longer Holmes-like, so they don't apply to this discussion.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Well, I myself have deduced that if you think 17 vs 18 is a firm barrier then we are speaking different languages.

If you don't know that 17 is +3 and 18 is +4, you need to play the game more. The barrier is firm because the game says that there is a firm barrier there. There is also one between every odd number and every even number for stats.

I will cede this debate to your undeniable genius.

It really doesn't take a genius to know the difference between +3, +4 and +5, but okay.
 

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