So a Keen Rapier Crits on....

[atom crash]

For what it's worth, here is Sean K Reynolds' rant on the topic.

 

[Tarangil]

My question is, why shouldn't it? They have all sorts of other over-the-top cinematic weapon/feat combinations, why not this one? There are easy remedies to ensure this isn't overly abused, and it does make for a fun encounter. Since I am still playing 3.0 I am going to allow it. Heck, the last game session we talked about just this sort of thing.

I think the reason why they omitted the Stacking thing is that other players were using other keen enableing abilities to add to the stacking, such as psionic effects and such. A player I knew tinkered with all the possibilities so his rapier would crit on a 5-20, I can't remember exactly what he used but it was nasty.

Personally I may allow the feat to be used in conjunction with keen items, but no other effect (magic, psionic, etc...) can stack.

 

[Cabral]

This is only the case if you house rule that Keen and Improved Critical stack. The rules dictate that they do not stack.

D'oh. Forgot about that. ... but yeah, I house rule it that way.

 

[Infiniti2000]

My question is, why shouldn't it? They have all sorts of other over-the-top cinematic weapon/feat combinations, why not this one? There are easy remedies to ensure this isn't overly abused, and it does make for a fun encounter. Since I am still playing 3.0 I am going to allow it. Heck, the last game session we talked about just this sort of thing.

If you're playing 3.0, of course you'll allow it. Otherwise, you'd be playing 3.5.

Seriously, though, there have been huge arguments for/against it. There are two main considerations for this and a third, lesser consideration. The third is simple, so I'll mention that first. If you have a any weapon abilities or PrC abilities that use crit threats to activate, then stacking improved critical (IC) and keen is a HUGE deal. The de facto case in point illustrating why this is a bad idea is the 3.0 vorpal ability. However, the 3.5 vorpal ability changes things drastically. The two other considerations are as follows:

1. Average Damage Output (ADO): It's a provably fact to some degree that keen and IC need to stack in order to maintain the ADO across weapons. For a much longer treatise on this, I refer you to Sean K. Reynold's rant on the subject.
2. Randomness: When a crit happens, it's usually a big deal. Sometimes it's not, but most times it is. Consider a raging barbarian with a greataxe as the extreme example. He'll do A LOT of damage on a critical and increasing the chances of that may not significantly increase the ADO, but it does change the flow of the campaign. When you plan for BBEG to handle "one more attack" a timely crit threat could change things. IMO, it's much worse for the heroes when a single crit by the bad guy could put a wizard from full health to dead in a single hit.

The fact is that the number of situations in which #2 comes up are rare, so it's not a bad idea to let them stack.

Edit: I take a short break mid-post to answer a work-related question and 50 people preempt me, even giving the same link! Sheesh!

 

[Cabral]

Edit: I take a short break mid-post to answer a work-related question and 50 people preempt me, even giving the same link! Sheesh!

That's what you get for letting work interfere with posting

 

[billd91]

My question is, why shouldn't it? They have all sorts of other over-the-top cinematic weapon/feat combinations, why not this one? There are easy remedies to ensure this isn't overly abused, and it does make for a fun encounter. Since I am still playing 3.0 I am going to allow it. Heck, the last game session we talked about just this sort of thing.

Even if there's some math out there saying that letting them stack is no big deal based on average damage, it feels wrong to me to let a weapon threaten 45% of the time you swing it (assuming it hits).
Also, stacking the two with a falchion and power attack starts to get a little crazier. It's not particularly outlandish, but neither is disallowing the abilities to stack. And that kind of leaves you with the feel of the game.

 

[Pielorinho]

For what it's worth, here is Sean K Reynolds' rant on the topic.

His rants are always fun to read, but one place made me raise my eyebrows:

And if he crits, he does an extra d6. Woohoo.


So maybe letting keen and Improved Critical means crits come up a lot more often. Maybe that makes crits a little less special. But we're talking about crits that are an extra weapon die of damage ... we're not talking about Arduin-style crits that do 1d100 damage, or sever limbs, or do instant-kills ... it's just another d6 or d8. They're not that special in the first place. And as established above, the weapons that crit more often need those crits to keep up with standard-crit-range weapons, otherwise there's no real point in choosing those high-threat weapons.

Huh? Assuming we're still talking about that +3 keen rapier wielded by a fighter with a 20 str, we're talking a base of 1d6+8 points of damage, or an average of 11.5 points of extra damage per crit. If it's a falchion, then we're talking 2d4+10, or an extra 15 points of damage per hit. If our friendly fighter has power attack, it gets progressively more. And if a spell like prayer is in effect, that likewise gets doubled. And so forth.

I think it's fine for the two to stack, but his analysis really fell apart for me at that "extra 1d6" business.

Daniel

 

[Infiniti2000]

I think it's fine for the two to stack, but his analysis really fell apart for me at that "extra 1d6" business.

Daniel

Did you follow to the second page, specifically the Table 2? That's a little more directly illustrative.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I think it's fine for the two to stack, but his analysis really fell apart for me at that "extra 1d6" business.

I seem to recall Monte providing commentary to that rant at one point. From memory, the character SKR was playing in 3E was a rogue, most of whose damage came from sneak attack, not constant bonuses. So his criticals pretty much did just add the base damage of the rapier.

His reaction to the change seems to have been more on the basis of how that rogue was affected, rather than a raging Power-Attacking barbarian with a Flaming Burst falchion and a Belt of Giant Strength.

-Hyp.

 

[Pielorinho]

His reaction to the change seems to have been more on the basis of how that rogue was affected, rather than a raging Power-Attacking barbarian with a Flaming Burst falchion and a Belt of Giant Strength.

Dude shouldn't be going flaming burst if he's going keen route: put those points into +2 additional on the weapon, power attack for an additional +2, and add an average of 6 points of damage to each hit before crits are taken into account .

Daniel