So...did Dragon wow you?

[Imaro]

Dungeon and Dragon magazine are supplements for 4e. 4e does not come out until May, that is eight month's away. 4e is not complete and thus the Dungeon and Dragon that is being released can not be complete.

It amazes me how so many people think that wotc is a chicken running around with its head cut off. If anything they are a very timeline oriented place. The material they are going to put online has already been outlined on a schedule. They are going for a slow build up so not to
provide too much material before launch and to continue anticipation. How in the world can you complain about anything free.

I thought they were supplements for D&D...oh well, my mistake. Anyway, so then why cancel the print magazine's before the release of 4e? I also remember still getting articles on 2nd ed. when the countdown to 3e was going on. Your reasoning almost sounds like this...

You're having a birthday with a pre-made cake.
Your mother takes said cake away before you or your friends eat it.
She say's she will make you a new cake in an hour.
She's out of flour and eggs, and they won't be available till tomorrow
She makes your "cake" without eggs or flour and you're wrong for not liking it because...well...it doesn't have eggs or flour yet so how can you judge it?
Why did she take the cake again, when she didn't have eggs or flour?

I can complain about it because it's not free...it cost me and others the two magazine's we enjoyed.

It's not meant to be the old dungeon/dragon. Its not even the same price.

You've never said truer words brother. It's not even close to the old mags.

That's right it costs the two magazine's I enjoyed, with a coming subscription price. The print mags never cost me that.

 

[SteveC]

I agree.

WotC definitely showed us how much they "get it" with the digital magazine launch. I expect that they will again show us how much they "get it" with 4e.

For years, the best 3rd Ed stuff was produced by 3rd parties. This comes as no surprise whatsoever.


RC

I have to seriously disagree with this, at least in part. Publishing an online magazine is a completely different skill set than what WotC does: they know print publication quite well, but have no experience with professional for pay online publishing, and they also don't do a periodical either. Those are completely different issues than putting out a core rulebook.

I would make the argument that WotC knows how to put out core rulebooks better than anyone else in the business. From a "quantity sold" perspective there's no arguing this, and I'll subjectively stack the current PHB/MM/DMG against any core rulebook that's out there,

Once we get into splats, I think things become far more subjective, and I'll grant that there have been better splat books of a particular type made by third party companies (again, that's pretty subjective, since by sales alone this isn't the case).

So the launch of 4E is something that WotC has done before, and done quite well with.

Dragon magazine online? Little or no experience with something like that, unfortunately.

As a result, I think we can't take the quality of the online publications as any sort of indication of a lack of quality for 4E.

Of course, YMMV.

--Steve

 

[gothmaugCC]

WEll frankly thier first articles felt to me like they took thier normal weekly web enhancements that they have been producing for the last 5 years and simply stuck it under the "Dragon Magazine" title.

It was not Dragon magazine as we are used to (paizo form). That could be a good or ba thing, depending on your view I guess.

If all its going to be is weekly web enhancements under a new title, they can keep it.

THey could at least give me a polished pretty form that I could print as a PDF or something.

I'll wait and see what the final product is, but right now, I'm not impressed.

 

[DonTadow]

I thought they were supplements for D&D...oh well, my mistake. Anyway, so then why cancel the print magazine's before the release of 4e? I also remember still getting articles on 2nd ed. when the countdown to 3e was going on. Your reasoning almost sounds like this...

Because approving articles, editing them and getting them ready to go from concept to reality is not a fiscal endeavor for a product that you will not support in one year. They had no intention of doing a a print business model of 3e and doing it would be counter productive to the marketing and advertising for 4e. You're talking about two different marketing plans. 2e to 3e, wotc wanted to show a business as usual approach, publishing 2e supplements to show this. 3e to 4e needed to be taken in a different direction. They weren't going to publish printed copies of dragon and dungeon on a website, and trying to mimic those publications would not market the concept of new and innovative that the corporation is aiming for.

You're having a birthday with a pre-made cake.
Your mother takes said cake away before you or your friends eat it.
She say's she will make you a new cake in an hour.
She's out of flour and eggs, and they won't be available till tomorrow
She makes your "cake" without eggs or flour and you're wrong for not liking it because...well...it doesn't have eggs or flour yet so how can you judge it?
Why did she take the cake again, when she didn't have eggs or flour?

I can complain about it because it's not free...it cost me and others the two magazine's we enjoyed.

It always saddens me when people give poor analogies to prove their points. This analogy failed well before you wrote it.

An accurate interpretation of the situation would be
Every week you pay your mom 15 bucks so she can make you a cake.
Then your mom tells you, that she's starting a new bakery, and that she's going to be using a new cake technique that'll cost 33 percent less but still provide you the same material. She then tells you that you're her son, and she's going to let you try out this cake for free for eight months until the new bakery is opened. The cake tastes the same, but the portions are lighter.

That's more accurate. What wotc is doing is nothing new and its an effective old school marketing technique. Give product for free. Portions are lighter than they will be for pay but it gives them a taste of what is to come.

 

[Imaro]

@DonTadow

So you're basically saying Dragon will be full of pointless filler for the next 8 months as 4e approaches and that's okay because it was only intended to support 4e that comes out in April/May and it's free. Again I ask...why take the magazine's away then.

My second point is this...so will Dungeon be producing 4e adventures only? I don't think so, so you're opinion that Dragon and Dungeon only support 4e doesn't hold up.

 

[carmachu]

The gripe about Wizards killing Paizo's magazine is legitimate, though you certainly put it in rather personal terms, but I don't believe that real judgement can be passed until after these publications move past the "we're just putting Design & Development and Web Enhancements under a different tab" phase.

The problem is, and your forgetting, is WotC is EVENTUALLY going to want you to pay for the content. So, in essence, its encumbant of WotC to put its best foot folward to entice me to buy into their Digital initiative.

Be honest, would you pay the $10 a month for that(and more, I understand).

The DI is, of its $10 a month, cost you $120 a year.

Dragon, if you subscribed, was roughly $40 a year. Assuming Dungeon was the same price....thats $80 a year for the two.

So you had two things that people were happy with, and removed them and replaced it with online content and DI at a higher price(yes I understand you get more, but bear with me)....its incumbent on THEM to show me why I want to pay good money for something. Yes its free NOW. It wont be later on. So why should I spend the money?

See the point? We havent even touched upon the bad feelings they have from some of their customer base over the cancellation of the print versions.

 

[Raven Crowking]

And, in any case, the cake doesn't taste the same.

 

[Imaro]

An accurate interpretation of the situation would be
Every week you pay your mom 15 bucks so she can make you a cake.WotC wasn't making the original cake

Then your mom tells you, that she's starting a new bakery, and that she's going to be using a new cake technique that'll cost 33 percent less but still provide you the same material. No your mom decides she can make a better cake than the original bakery and also forbids you from buying or eating the old cake, and again wasn't making the first cake anyway

She then tells you that you're her son, and she's going to let you try out this cake for free for eight months until the new bakery is opened. Also note you don't have an alternative anymore

The cake tastes the same, but the portions are lighter. Actually WotC stated the online model would allow them to produce more content, and how exactly does the cake taste the same? It sure ain't the same as the Dragon issues I have sitting on my bookcase

That's more accurate. No, it really isn't What wotc is doing is nothing new and its an effective old school marketing technique. Give product for free. Portions are lighter than they will be for pay but it gives them a taste of what is to come.

The big difference here is WotC is competing with something out the gate that was serving it's fan base and they chose to take that away for what was promoted as a better model. Show don't tell is all I can say about that, the time for hype is over, now that your showing your hand it's not impressive.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Looking at the poll thus far, I'd extimate that you only needed to roll a 3 to make your saving throw vs WotC's "ain't this cool?" suggestion spell. Obviously, though, a few people have unlucky dice......

 

[DonTadow]

@DonTadow

So you're basically saying Dragon will be full of pointless filler for the next 8 months as 4e approaches and that's okay because it was only intended to support 4e that comes out in April/May and it's free. Again I ask...why take the magazine's away then.

My second point is this...so will Dungeon be producing 4e adventures only? I don't think so, so you're opinion that Dragon and Dungeon only support 4e doesn't hold up.

Not, dragon will contain articles about 4e. Mechanical stuff may be issued much closer to launch. They can't possibly give you enough material to play 4e without buying the core book, this is just good business sense.

The point of taking the magazine away is to begin the non-support of 3.5 by wotc. WOTC owns dragon and dungeon magazine. They're plan is to prepare people for 4e as opposed to supporting what they consider to be a dead product. The timing of this was determined by the licenses expiration. It didn't make good fiscal sense for them to negotiate an extension that was only going to last a few month and give a false impression that they were trying to double dip off of 3.5 and 4e at the same time.

From what I've read, Dungeon will primarily be supporting 4e adventures only. The key word is primarily.