So, Hackmaster Basic?

[thenightgaunt]

Well, the pre-game emails have taken a bad turn. The upshot is that all the players--me included--feel that their characters are underpowered, just from rolling stats; and the DM actually wants that kind of game. It has made me realize that old school D&D gaming to me does not mean tactics & strategy, but that is exactly what it means to the others in my group. I'm just not good at that type of play, and I believe that the game as we play it rewards extreme caution while punishing the risk-takers whose characters eventually die forcing the players to come back with relatively underpowered replacements--thereby reinforcing the cautious-play loop. That dynamic probably explains why I don't favor that game, and why I am now less excited about this HMB game. I think it is salvagable, but I am not sure it is worth my effort to play against type.

I just hope all this doesn't wreck my current game, too. I am not feeling the love right now. Any help is appreciated.

There is that sort of feel to HMb and to be honest that was the feel of Hackmaster as well. Old School gaming, as the kenzer guys see it (myself as well), is pretty much what we see depicted in the Knights of the Dinner Table comics. GM's more willing to make a rule call than sit sifting through books for 10 minutes. Players being tricky, sneaky and taking advantage of what they can. And GM's willing to smack down stupid player tricks.

Why smack down risk takers? Because most of the time, they die horribly. In real life, the people who do crazy stuff and survive are generally the ones who plan things out, figure out everyway it can go wrong, and prepare for it. Otherwise you get people who's obituaries end up as either fodder for Mythbusters or The Darwin Awards.

Hackmaster has always been a grittier fantasy RPG. It's "Kingdom of Heaven" to 3rd ed's "Willow". It's "Lord of the Rings" to 4th's "The Dungeons and Dragons Movie". It requires more thought, planning and common sense than most games these days.

I've read through it and I love what they did with HMb. Combat is a bit more fluid and what players do has a bigger impact than in other games. Shileds absorb/deflect damage rather than making you harder to hit (like in real life). And you're rolling an opposed roll to try to dodge your opponent's attack. The changes to mages threw me off a bit at first, but if you do the math, nothing is lost between editions. Mages can still cast more spells than their 3d ed counter parts (and the same # as their HM versions). The main difference is that spells and slots are broken up by level. So you never level up and go (oh, my hp went up but that's it). There's always a significant impact to the character when you level.

Things to keep in mind. This is HMBasic. It's only a simple system to cover the first 5 lvls of gameplay. The upcoming Hackmaster Advanced (or just "Hackmaster") is supposed to have all the rules and detailed stuff you want to play with (like 2 weapon fighting).

 

[KJSEvans]

However, Knights of the Dinner Table 156 and 157 have EP leveling information up to Level 10, while the HackJournals have other classes of characters, such as rangers, rogues, paladins, knights, fighter/mages, fighter/thieves, which I believe are developed there up to Level 20.

One thing I've noticed - good tactics always triumph. The game has the potential to be deadly and brutal, but if your group is talented at playing together and using each others' strengths, you'll survive just fine. (Mostly.)

There was a very interesting article in KODT 142 which measured how many goblins a 1st level fighter could kill before dying in the various editions of D&D. In OD&D, it was 2.7. By the time 4E rolled around, it was 23.4. I suspect that, in HackMaster Basic, a 1st level fighter would skew toward OD&D as opposed to 4E. (Not that there's anything wrong with single-handedly wiping out a tribe of Goblins as a 1st level fighter...)

 

[scourger]

Well, the dialogue here & within the group has at least convinced me that this is not the kind of game I want to play. I seek a more heroic game. I likely give it a try, maybe it will surprise me; but I'll mostly be playing against type.

 

[KJSEvans]

Well, the dialogue here & within the group has at least convinced me that this is not the kind of game I want to play. I seek a more heroic game. I likely give it a try, maybe it will surprise me; but I'll mostly be playing against type.

I guess it depends on what you consider heroic. Wading through foes that have no chance of beating you isn't very heroic to me. Squaring off against a group of foes where you honestly don't know the outcome until the moment you triumph? That is heroic.

We had a combat situation a few sessions ago where I honestly thought we were going to be wiped out. It was the third or fourth major battle that we'd encountered while in the dungeon, so our clerics were pretty much out of healing spells, our mage was sucking fumes on his Spell Points, and I (one of two "tanks") was down to 8 hit points after having had 5 points of Looks and Charisma shaved off by an onslaught of fire elementals. With lava rising behind us, we squared off against a group of goblins and some very large orcs... and thanks to a few key rolls, we slaughtered 'em. It might have been the moment that really sold me on making HackMaster my primary game for as long as they bother to produce it.

Likewise, I was running a game on Saturday night in which a cleric - a cleric, mind you - cut down three opponents in a matter of about four seconds thanks to some simultaneous attack fumbles, not to mention he knocked a fourth enemy 10 feet back after smacking him with his warhammer. He kept yelling, "that's what you get when the Caregiver comes to town!" as he blasted them again and again.

If you don't think that's heroic, and hilarious, then I'd like to know what is.

 

[scourger]

Squaring off against a group of foes where you honestly don't know the outcome until the moment you triumph? That is heroic.

I agree. But, here's the way it will go in my group. If I play my cripplingly flawed character in any way remotely taking the kinds of risks you describe, I will be the only one; and it will end up with me having to make a new character while the rest of the "heroes" skulk off--or worse loot my character's body before dumping him in a shallow grave. And, HMB seems to reinforce that style of play. I'm not saying it has to be that way, but I know how it is for our group. And, it's not entirely a criticism of my friends. Since I now know that is how they play, it is foolish of me to expect any given game to mirror my play style and deliver more heroism. After more than 10 years, I should know better; and now I do.

 

[TanisFrey]

HACKMASTER Basic is a terrible mess. I don't say that as someone who doesn't like HACKMASTER - I don't, but that's beside the point. I approached it as a new RPG, I didn't look on it as "Well this had better be as good as AD&D 'or else'." Rather, I genuinely wanted to like it.

When your character creation system makes me throw the book across the room in disgust you have done something fundamentally wrong in the way you wrote your character creation rules. And your game in general.

There may be good stuff there, but the measure of an RPG is how well you can convey to someone how the personage in the game they're about to play is constructed. HACKMASTER Basic does this extremely poorly. To the point of irritating me into not wanting to bother with it, at all. So whatever good stuff might be in there is just crap, brothers.

It is the SUCKER-PUNCH of RPG books: I'd like to like it, but it's an incoherent mess.

OK I get you don't like it but why? Give us some examples. I found the PC generation to be very quick, easy and a nice mix of old school random with a pinch of new school balance and flexibility.
And the count system, whilst seemingly fiddly, is quick easy and very very engaging in actual play.

I agree with mach1.9pants, it is laid out in a good manner. How much does a weapon proficiency cost me? Its in with the other skill/talents/proficiency section, just double check your class for special rules, which is under the class write up.

thedungeondelver have you ever cracked opened a Old World of Darkness book? Those were a mess, especially the LARP versions.

Only a few of the spells are a complete mess.

 

[TanisFrey]

Last Saturday we played, let go rescue the illimitable child of the local lord from unknown kidnappers. The kidnappers turned out to be goblins using a human go between to deliver their demands. We find the layer, kill the bear that was in our way, camped over night, killed the 2 goblins who found us over night. Mutated the goblins bodies to make it look like that the bear got them.

In the morning we assaulted the abandoned manor house through the rear door. Within 15 a goblin scored a lucky hit on out dwarf fighter and forced a Tolerance of Pain check. The dwarf is Our tank, the dwarf has the most hit points, he has the highest Con score. He fails the check and will be out of the combat until 68. Our tank, the rock of our line is not only knocked out but we have to protect him from having his trough from being slit.

We, the cleric, the thief dual wielding dagger combatant and the elf mage/thief form the line to protect the dwarf. the elf mage cast a couple of sleep spells and knows out most of the goblins and the halfing thief is silting troughs of goblins behind our line before they wake up. When the goblins from up stairs come down and open the door into our rear. We are in deep S#$%^!

The goblins wake everyone on their side of the line. The Thief falls back to help the halfing. The goblins start to poor through the whole in the middle of our line. They begin to cut my mage/thief off from everyone else. I fall back and get pressed to the wall with the thief and the halfing. on the other side of the room the cleric is standing guard over the dwarf and the mage is firing his bow into melee and hits the cleric in the back.

The thief has downed the most goblins we begin to press forward and some of the unengaged goblins flee, but the Thief is heavily wounded. The cleric briefly steps away from the dwarf to pass a healing potion to the thief as the main line of the goblins begin to break.

The dwarf finely gets up in time for the mop up of the three goblins still on their feet. We capture one of the goblins.



My mage/thief is the second weakest character with the lowest hit point. He has no spells useful in this indoor fight and unwilling to use his bow into melee after hitting the thief in the back when the goblins were trying to escape their encounter with the overnight camp.

So when he found himself on the front line, fighting with a pair of daggers wearing nothing more that thick robes and his thiefs luck, he know that he was unlikely to injure the goblins in armor with a dagger and weak strength. So he fought defensive to save his ass, -8 to hit for a +4 for defense. At one point with all of the maneuvering his attack penalty was -11. Several times his attack score was a negative total.

It was a fun exciting fight, that scared my for my character most of the time.

 

[KJSEvans]

I agree. But, here's the way it will go in my group. If I play my cripplingly flawed character in any way remotely taking the kinds of risks you describe, I will be the only one; and it will end up with me having to make a new character while the rest of the "heroes" skulk off--or worse loot my character's body before dumping him in a shallow grave. And, HMB seems to reinforce that style of play. I'm not saying it has to be that way, but I know how it is for our group. And, it's not entirely a criticism of my friends. Since I now know that is how they play, it is foolish of me to expect any given game to mirror my play style and deliver more heroism. After more than 10 years, I should know better; and now I do.

My friends can be best described as "game breakers." They will do whatever they can to ruin an adventure, for instance. (This is an attitude that I would not describe as being "heroic," but it can be pretty funny in the right circumstances.) However, they still play to have each other's back. Teamwork is key in HackMaster, and should be key in pretty much any RPG.

The reason we won that big standoff - one fighter picked up the slack and took point when mine couldn't. Our cleric - not the same one wielding the warhammer - bullrushed the orcs and goblins in an attempt to knock them off a narrow bridge which hung over a lava flow. He failed, burned honor, and lived to tell the tale. (Heroic.) Our mage, sucking fumes on spell points, burned himself out and dropped unconscious, but still managed to put most of our opponents to sleep, allowing our thieves to cut their throats before they could wake up.

I hate telling character stories, but it exemplifies how team play can lead to extremely memorable gaming events in HackMaster. I don't know anything about you or your group, but my gut tells me, based on what you're saying, that it is they who struggle to act heroic, not that the game prevents heroism from occurring.

All that said, I can't proclaim that the game fits your style, or that it's for everyone, but it sure as hell is a lot of fun. I could live and breathe HackMaster...

 

[scourger]

I don't know anything about you or your group, but my gut tells me, based on what you're saying, that it is they who struggle to act heroic, not that the game prevents heroism from occurring.

All that said, I can't proclaim that the game fits your style, or that it's for everyone, but it sure as hell is a lot of fun.

All likely very true. Here's hoping it is heroic & fun.

 

[thenightgaunt]

Well, the dialogue here & within the group has at least convinced me that this is not the kind of game I want to play. I seek a more heroic game. I likely give it a try, maybe it will surprise me; but I'll mostly be playing against type.

To each their own. There's nothing wrong with that. There are really multiple types of heroic play and thats why we have different RPGs. You have cinematic heroic like 3rd ed or Pathfinder. Kick ass, take names, and generally be pretty damned epic. Like in a Conan movie, or (no offense) an anime series.
Or there's gritty heroic like hackmaster. Start off small and work your way up. Use your wits, cunning and luck to overcome those in your way. It's a dirty, harsh world but you get a feeling of achievement from rising up from it (my favorite). Different games, different overall tones.
There're other types, but why bring them up now?

I agree. But, here's the way it will go in my group. If I play my cripplingly flawed character in any way remotely taking the kinds of risks you describe, I will be the only one; and it will end up with me having to make a new character while the rest of the "heroes" skulk off--or worse loot my character's body before dumping him in a shallow grave. And, HMB seems to reinforce that style of play. I'm not saying it has to be that way, but I know how it is for our group. And, it's not entirely a criticism of my friends. Since I now know that is how they play, it is foolish of me to expect any given game to mirror my play style and deliver more heroism. After more than 10 years, I should know better; and now I do.

I think I understand ya. One of the ways that Hackmaster (new and old) delt with this was by making sure that the classes were balanced and that the world was harsh. Lets say your critically flawed character dies being risky. So they dump him in a ditch and rob his corpse. The cleric then takes an XP penalty and gets a bump towards evil or chaotic on the alignment chart. Also, all the PCs are somewhat flawed, so no one's really lording over the others. But even if that happens, it's compensated for. The Hackmaster settings are harsh as are their monsters. If your party fights among itself alot or isn't working as a team, they're all going to die. Hell, half of the HM games I've run over the years initially end with a party caused TPK in the first session or two. Then the players realize they need to work togeather and not fight/kill one another.

A good Hackmaster game requires players getting in the right mindset, and a GM willing to lay some smackdown to help keep it that way.

But, on the other hand, some people just don't enjoy that playing style and there's nothing wrong with that. There is a certain amount of rules lawyering (or at least memorizing) in Hackmaster and it can be a huge pain in the ass if all you're looking for is a casual, high fantasy game to chill and slay dragons with.