Yes, always best to allow free retraining for the first couple sessions, until everyone is on the same page.
So ... my DM doesn't let us buy items ... ever ... what do I do?
- Thread starter Renthar
- Start date
Yes, always best to allow free retraining for the first couple sessions, until everyone is on the same page.
In any other RPG I have GMed I would have pretty much kicked a player if he read through the magic items list of the game. They were always considered GM-Only.
The D&D character builder is pretty much responsible for giving this odd impression that players should be in control of the itemisation of the game. I still struggle with that myself. I just don't see itemisation as part of the character creation process, it is part of the reward system.
My main issue is that I never like characters based around the particular uses of magical item/s. I think it makes for a weak character concept, is poorly balanced and is gameist in the extreme if the character tailoring is done with the expectation of gaining that particular item.
The monetisation also helps destroy much of a sense of RPing for higher level characters. For instance I have an ultra-patriotic (and racial supremist) epic level character. I have enough cash to raise mercenary armies, or build cities on a whim, buy defensive walls for all my people's cities, feed all of the poor...or buy one magic item.
It is even tougher for Paladins. How can they claim to be pillars of virtue when the sword they just bought cost them enough cash to end poverty in the mortal realm. Imagine what it would do to the world economy if even one level 30 PC sold off all their gear and took the cash to the mortal realm.
I think the de-monetising has to happen at higher levels, it is simply unsustainable otherwise. The economy functions OK until mid-paragon where the cost of items reaches the point of ridiculousness.
The D&D character builder is pretty much responsible for giving this odd impression that players should be in control of the itemisation of the game. I still struggle with that myself. I just don't see itemisation as part of the character creation process, it is part of the reward system.
My main issue is that I never like characters based around the particular uses of magical item/s. I think it makes for a weak character concept, is poorly balanced and is gameist in the extreme if the character tailoring is done with the expectation of gaining that particular item.
The monetisation also helps destroy much of a sense of RPing for higher level characters. For instance I have an ultra-patriotic (and racial supremist) epic level character. I have enough cash to raise mercenary armies, or build cities on a whim, buy defensive walls for all my people's cities, feed all of the poor...or buy one magic item.
It is even tougher for Paladins. How can they claim to be pillars of virtue when the sword they just bought cost them enough cash to end poverty in the mortal realm. Imagine what it would do to the world economy if even one level 30 PC sold off all their gear and took the cash to the mortal realm.
I think the de-monetising has to happen at higher levels, it is simply unsustainable otherwise. The economy functions OK until mid-paragon where the cost of items reaches the point of ridiculousness.
S
Sunseeker
Guest
I agree that this kind of GMing generally feels like stepping on players toes.
I do agree with your Gm though, that magic item shops with everything under the sun are not something I enjoy in my game. However, I don't end up choosing items for my players. I run it, as your GM does, that cool magic stuff comes from finding hidden treasure or defeating foes. I don't though include stuff your party won't use(unless there's a nifty plot reason), I do basically let my players "shop" to an extent.
In my games, when you find magical treasure, you have to "identify" it, which is basically my players deciding what item it is that they want.
Perhaps you should tell your GM what kind of items you would like to have, and maybe he'll work a way into getting them for you. Having the Gm picking stuff for me really feels like the GM is telling me how to play my character, I don't like it.
I do agree with your Gm though, that magic item shops with everything under the sun are not something I enjoy in my game. However, I don't end up choosing items for my players. I run it, as your GM does, that cool magic stuff comes from finding hidden treasure or defeating foes. I don't though include stuff your party won't use(unless there's a nifty plot reason), I do basically let my players "shop" to an extent.
In my games, when you find magical treasure, you have to "identify" it, which is basically my players deciding what item it is that they want.
Perhaps you should tell your GM what kind of items you would like to have, and maybe he'll work a way into getting them for you. Having the Gm picking stuff for me really feels like the GM is telling me how to play my character, I don't like it.
am181d
Adventurer
The GM's approach has been the default assumption over the better part of the history of D&D and even in 4th edition, I'm under the impression that there's no default assumption that PCs will be able to buy magic items.
(That's why 4e treasure parcels include magic items.)
A good middle ground is this:
If a player really wants a particular magic item, let the character research and then quest for that particular item. Alternatively, allow for the occasional purchase of specific items. (No magic item shops, but maybe you hear a rumor that Merchant X has recently come into possession of a specific item and is looking for a buyer.)
(That's why 4e treasure parcels include magic items.)
A good middle ground is this:
If a player really wants a particular magic item, let the character research and then quest for that particular item. Alternatively, allow for the occasional purchase of specific items. (No magic item shops, but maybe you hear a rumor that Merchant X has recently come into possession of a specific item and is looking for a buyer.)
I totally agree with this, your whole post makes a lot of sense honestly.
Thanks much for all of your help everyone. This thread has given me lots of ideas, so please keep them coming.
Part of my problem is that I've never played D&D with another DM (just because I haven't found any in my area) so I wasn't sure if this was the norm or if this was a change that didn't happen often.
Now my DM doesn't know about this thread, do you all think it would be a good idea to show him and see what he thinks of all of this, or should I try to persuade him on my own?
Castellanox7
First Post
If he values RP moreso than anything, play the game. I second what was said about researching <ITEM>, or constantly being on the lookout for new items. Is he the type of person that if you impress him with your RP, he'll respect/give you more leeway?
A second thing could be to scavenge, scavenge, scavenge. In my last session, I picked up a hexing rod from a goblin hexhurler, and now can use Blinding Hex as a power. Granted, I have the highest arcana to be able to figure out how to use it, but I'm sure you could have the PC with the highest arcana "teach you".
Say there's a berserker minotaur with a two-handed axe, could you possibly get away with RPing that "because of the bloodlust you saw in the minotaur, you can channel into a similar passion in the heat of battle", for a bonus? I realize it's a stretch.
If scavenging won't work, go for ingenuity. Could you buy bottles of wine? If so, you have a makeshift Molotov Cocktail with a piece of cloth from a baddie or your adventurer's kit.
There's a link out there (that I can't find...) that's like "100 funny things you can do with invisible/magic hand", try thinking like that.
TL;DR: Let your creativity flow; if he's going to be a stickler, Play the game.
A second thing could be to scavenge, scavenge, scavenge. In my last session, I picked up a hexing rod from a goblin hexhurler, and now can use Blinding Hex as a power. Granted, I have the highest arcana to be able to figure out how to use it, but I'm sure you could have the PC with the highest arcana "teach you".
Say there's a berserker minotaur with a two-handed axe, could you possibly get away with RPing that "because of the bloodlust you saw in the minotaur, you can channel into a similar passion in the heat of battle", for a bonus? I realize it's a stretch.
If scavenging won't work, go for ingenuity. Could you buy bottles of wine? If so, you have a makeshift Molotov Cocktail with a piece of cloth from a baddie or your adventurer's kit.
There's a link out there (that I can't find...) that's like "100 funny things you can do with invisible/magic hand", try thinking like that.
TL;DR: Let your creativity flow; if he's going to be a stickler, Play the game.
A big problem with the DM picking items for you is that, for the most part, DMs tend to pick lousy items because their attention is divided among five or six characters, and they're not always sure what a character's strategy is or what an individual player will find useful or cool. If I had a nickel for every time a DM, beaming with pride, handed over the "sweet loot" only to be met with shrugs and "we sell it when we get into town," I'd be rich enough to buy a +6 Magic Weapon.
For instance, in my SOW game which uses strict item rarity, I've been stuck with the Sword of Kas for like 3 or 4 levels now, and it's looking like I'm going to be lugging around that whiny piece of evil for the rest of the campaign. Which is a shame, because I'd much rather be using my old Sword of the Eldritch Knight, which fit my character concept a lot better and was 10 times more useful.
The old "DM picks everything, you'll take what you get and like it" style worked in older editions because a) enhancement bonuses weren't figured into the math of the game (though inherent bonuses are a great patch for this) and b) magic items were awesome and powerful, so it was hard to be disappointed. But 4e is burdened with a large number of extremely lackluster magic items that only really get cool if used with some sort of feat or power synergy.
Wishlists were supposed to alleviate this problem to an extent. The problem was that they seemed largely irrelevant when PCs could buy whatever they wanted. Item rarity plus wishlists seem to be the way to go these days, with perhaps inherent bonuses to patch up oversights.
In your case, OP, I'd ask your DM to strongly consider using inherent bonuses.
For instance, in my SOW game which uses strict item rarity, I've been stuck with the Sword of Kas for like 3 or 4 levels now, and it's looking like I'm going to be lugging around that whiny piece of evil for the rest of the campaign. Which is a shame, because I'd much rather be using my old Sword of the Eldritch Knight, which fit my character concept a lot better and was 10 times more useful.
The old "DM picks everything, you'll take what you get and like it" style worked in older editions because a) enhancement bonuses weren't figured into the math of the game (though inherent bonuses are a great patch for this) and b) magic items were awesome and powerful, so it was hard to be disappointed. But 4e is burdened with a large number of extremely lackluster magic items that only really get cool if used with some sort of feat or power synergy.
Wishlists were supposed to alleviate this problem to an extent. The problem was that they seemed largely irrelevant when PCs could buy whatever they wanted. Item rarity plus wishlists seem to be the way to go these days, with perhaps inherent bonuses to patch up oversights.
In your case, OP, I'd ask your DM to strongly consider using inherent bonuses.
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Dragonblade
Adventurer
There is nothing wrong with getting rid of freely available items in 4e. But its important that your DM use the Inherent Bonus rules from DMG 2.
That way, even if items are rare or non-existent, your characters expected power will still be appropriate for their level.
That way, even if items are rare or non-existent, your characters expected power will still be appropriate for their level.
As a DM of a 4E game myself, I understand where your DM is coming from. That said, I wouldn't go so far.
In my campaign, I hand out magic items based on what I think the players would like.I have a cavalier that decided to use a spear and shield, so I put a vanguard spear on a minor boss. We have a pacifist cleric who likes staves, so I put in healer's chain and a staff of tongues, which he seems to enjoy.
I've started putting in magic items now that have an enchantment that the players might want, but they're on the wrong weapon type, so they can transfer the enchantment over. Then, I adjust their gold gain to compensate.
If they want to sell a magic item, they need to find a merchant who has that kind of money available, which is not going to happen in your small villages and smaller towns. They're about to head to the imperial capital city, though, where there exists a fairly sizable grey market for magic items, so they'll be able to take care of some business while they're there.
I have found one problem with 4E, though (well, one in particular; there are others), and that is that it's a little weird giving out so much money, because it would be heavy and take up a lot of space. I took care of this problem once by giving them a free Bag of Holding filled with their reward. Now they have a community purse where they don't really have to worry about weight and space.
As regards mundane items, I took a kind of Shadowrun approach to that. Since 4E math is based around items only and not roleplaying costs, I disassociated those two things. When the group goes to an inn, the rooms are free. When they order food, the food is free. Their "lifestyle" takes care of it. That is, of course, unless they want to splurge. Want to get that really expensive vintage of elven wine? Pay for it. Want to special order a roast boar for dinner? Pay for it. Want the really expensive noble suite in the capital city's inn? Oh, you're going to pay a lot for it. But for porridge, an ale and access to the common room? You can have it free. It's just not worth tracking that expenditure of silver and copper when you're starting to get platinum coins on a regular basis.
In my campaign, I hand out magic items based on what I think the players would like.I have a cavalier that decided to use a spear and shield, so I put a vanguard spear on a minor boss. We have a pacifist cleric who likes staves, so I put in healer's chain and a staff of tongues, which he seems to enjoy.
I've started putting in magic items now that have an enchantment that the players might want, but they're on the wrong weapon type, so they can transfer the enchantment over. Then, I adjust their gold gain to compensate.
If they want to sell a magic item, they need to find a merchant who has that kind of money available, which is not going to happen in your small villages and smaller towns. They're about to head to the imperial capital city, though, where there exists a fairly sizable grey market for magic items, so they'll be able to take care of some business while they're there.
I have found one problem with 4E, though (well, one in particular; there are others), and that is that it's a little weird giving out so much money, because it would be heavy and take up a lot of space. I took care of this problem once by giving them a free Bag of Holding filled with their reward. Now they have a community purse where they don't really have to worry about weight and space.
As regards mundane items, I took a kind of Shadowrun approach to that. Since 4E math is based around items only and not roleplaying costs, I disassociated those two things. When the group goes to an inn, the rooms are free. When they order food, the food is free. Their "lifestyle" takes care of it. That is, of course, unless they want to splurge. Want to get that really expensive vintage of elven wine? Pay for it. Want to special order a roast boar for dinner? Pay for it. Want the really expensive noble suite in the capital city's inn? Oh, you're going to pay a lot for it. But for porridge, an ale and access to the common room? You can have it free. It's just not worth tracking that expenditure of silver and copper when you're starting to get platinum coins on a regular basis.
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