D&D 5E So Shadar-Kai are now a subrace of elves: Huh?

[Isilme Lanithlorien]

I do apologize for any potential thread necromancy but I just came across this and thought that it should be pointed out that the concept of a Shadow Elf has existed since 2nd edition ADnD, it was introduced in the Gazetteer number 13, though I believe it was really intended for Greyhawk it puts precedence to this subrace, however I agree that with what they did in 4E a different name may have been optimal.

 

[gyor]

I do apologize for any potential thread necromancy but I just came across this and thought that it should be pointed out that the concept of a Shadow Elf has existed since 2nd edition ADnD, it was introduced in the Gazetteer number 13, though I believe it was really intended for Greyhawk it puts precedence to this subrace, however I agree that with what they did in 4E a different name may have been optimal.

There is also a Ravenloft Elf subrace this would fit.

 

[Azzy]

I do apologize for any potential thread necromancy but I just came across this and thought that it should be pointed out that the concept of a Shadow Elf has existed since 2nd edition ADnD, it was introduced in the Gazetteer number 13, though I believe it was really intended for Greyhawk it puts precedence to this subrace, however I agree that with what they did in 4E a different name may have been optimal.

Well, not quite. The Shadows Elves of yesteryear were wholly different from the Shadar-Kai. They originated in "basic" D&D rule set (not AD&D), and were for the Known World/Mystara setting. They had no connection to the (Demi)Plane of Shadow/Shadowfell or any other non-Material Plane. They were essentially albino, subterranean elves.

 

[gyor]

Well, not quite. The Shadows Elves of yesteryear were wholly different from the Shadar-Kai. They originated in "basic" D&D rule set (not AD&D), and were for the Known World/Mystara setting. They had no connection to the (Demi)Plane of Shadow/Shadowfell or any other non-Material Plane. They were essentially albino, subterranean elves.

I'm betting Shadow Elves get retconned into Shadar Kai, the way Shadar Kai got retconned into former humans and then inti an Elven subrace. Maybe they will retain the basic fluff of the Shadow Elves in Mystara instead of Raven Queen/Netherilese origins.

 

[Remathilis]

I'm betting Shadow Elves get retconned into Shadar Kai, the way Shadar Kai got retconned into former humans and then inti an Elven subrace. Maybe they will retain the basic fluff of the Shadow Elves in Mystara instead of Raven Queen/Netherilese origins.

I see no real reason to. They're a niche subrace of elves from a world that is fairly niche in the D&D multiverse. The shadow elves, despite their name, have little to do with the plane of shadow and are basically albino elves who live under the earth and have superior darkvision at the cost of elven weapon proficiency. TBH, if someone asked to play one, I'd probably just use the high elf stats for them. I don't think the shadow elves or Mystara (or the dusk elves of Ravenloft) will warrant a mention, and certainly not in the same breath as shadar-kai.

 

[gyor]

I see no real reason to. They're a niche subrace of elves from a world that is fairly niche in the D&D multiverse. The shadow elves, despite their name, have little to do with the plane of shadow and are basically albino elves who live under the earth and have superior darkvision at the cost of elven weapon proficiency. TBH, if someone asked to play one, I'd probably just use the high elf stats for them. I don't think the shadow elves or Mystara (or the dusk elves of Ravenloft) will warrant a mention, and certainly not in the same breath as shadar-kai.

I saw no need to turn Shadar Kai into Elves, but they did, its not so much what we feel is needed, its what they choose to do. I don't know if they will do that, but its a possiblity. If they do they might change the fluff of Shadar Kai abit in Mystara to fit Shadow Elves. So maybe in Mystara they don't have a tie to the Shadowfell, maybe its a tie to the underdark. Or maybe the Shadow Elves will just be an albino option for Drow, I don't know.

I do feel that Shadar Kai will be equated with the Ravenloft Elves at least.

 

[gyor]

"Dusk elves were first introduced to Dungeons and Dragons in the 4th Edition Dragon Magazine (#382) article, Winning Races: Dusk Elves by Robert J. Schwalb as another offshoot of the original elf race that would split into several varieties thanks to the conflict between Corellon Larethian and Lolth. In the conflict, the collection of individuals that would become the dusk elves took steps to stay out of the conflict between the two deities and their faithful. Deemed as traitors, the dusk elves' ancestors took to hiding in secret conclaves veiled from the world."


They directly poached the fluff creation fluff of the Dusk Elves, for the 5e Shadar Kai, gentle persons bet that Shadar Kai=Dusk Elves in 5e.

Source is Mistopedia.

http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Category:Dusk_Elf

 

[Remathilis]

I saw no need to turn Shadar Kai into Elves, but they did, its not so much what we feel is needed, its what they choose to do. I don't know if they will do that, but its a possiblity. If they do they might change the fluff of Shadar Kai abit in Mystara to fit Shadow Elves. So maybe in Mystara they don't have a tie to the Shadowfell, maybe its a tie to the underdark. Or maybe the Shadow Elves will just be an albino option for Drow, I don't know.

The shadar-kai were popular enough to warrant an update, and the elf-recon is to reconcile the playable 4e version with the fey-monster 3e one. Moreover, I don't believe Mystara will even warrant a mention in MToF. Its not a well-known or beloved setting except to a small subset of Basic-edition players who are too busy celebrating the RC being POD than caring about Tome of Foes. Mystara, it seems to the current design team, is a neat place to borrow things from (Isle of Dread, tortles, nagpa, rakasta...er tabaxi) but not a setting that warrants actual development.

I do feel that Shadar Kai will be equated with the Ravenloft Elves at least.

Well, dusk elves in Curse of Strahd were already mentioned to be equivalent to wood elves, so I doubt that will be the case either.

 

[hoshisabi]

Moreover, I don't believe Mystara will even warrant a mention in MToF. Its not a well-known or beloved setting except to a small subset of Basic-edition players who are too busy celebrating the RC being POD than caring about Tome of Foes.

Hey now, some of us grew up in "The Known World" and there's a lot of classic adventures set there. I'm not expecting a world book, but like you said, they've borrowed other items, no telling what will peek out next.

(And there's a fairly active online presence for it, but I think they mostly play BECMI retro clones.)

 

[gyor]

The shadar-kai were popular enough to warrant an update, and the elf-recon is to reconcile the playable 4e version with the fey-monster 3e one. Moreover, I don't believe Mystara will even warrant a mention in MToF. Its not a well-known or beloved setting except to a small subset of Basic-edition players who are too busy celebrating the RC being POD than caring about Tome of Foes. Mystara, it seems to the current design team, is a neat place to borrow things from (Isle of Dread, tortles, nagpa, rakasta...er tabaxi) but not a setting that warrants actual development.



Well, dusk elves in Curse of Strahd were already mentioned to be equivalent to wood elves, so I doubt that will be the case either.

And the SCAG said to use regular elves for sea, averiel and other kinds of elves. Things change when they have the space and opportunity to update them better.

So yeah in CofS they were a variantion of Wood Elves, as a place holder, they didn't want to introduce a new playable subrace in CofS. They do however want to do so in MTOFs.

Merging Dusk Elves, 3e Shadar Kai, and 4e Shadar Kai is EXACTLY HOW THEY CAME UP WITH 5E SHADAR KAI.

The Dusk Elves were Elves that refused to take sides between Corellon and Lloth and ended up cast into the Shadowfell for it.

The 5e Shadar Kai were Elves that refused to take sides in the War between Corellon and Lloth, it was because of this they ultimately became Shadar Kai, abit their fall was caused by the Raven Queen and the Nagpa, not Corellon getting mad and deeldarinifying them like the original Dusk Elves.

They share the shadowfell in common already, they were both the neutral faction in the war between Lloth and Corellon. Wood elves were just a mechanical place holder, like they were for Sea Elves, Avariel, Lythari, Wild Elves, ect... in the SCAG.

On one side High Elves, Wood Elves, Wild Elves, Sea Elves, Avierel, Lycanthari, Eldarin ect..., on the other Drow, Driders, Dreagloth, and maybe at times Fey'ri. The Shadar Kai aka Dusk Elves stand apart and are the Neutral side, they are at War (well generally, the Netheril War during the Sundering is an exception) with neither side and are willing to deal with either.



Still I believe they are more likely to use white drow for Shadow Elves then Shadar Kai anyways, because they are more tied to the underdark/hollow world then Shadar Kai usually are. Plus Drow have Suppiorior Darkvision as did Shadow Elves. Culturally they will be different for obvious reasons.