So we might mess up, so what? Forked Thread: Fudging the Numbers in 3ed

[Imaro]

I see where you are coming from but my personal preference lies in the opposite direction. I hate it when there is such a wide disparity of save bonuses that the barbarian is almost always guaranteed to make it and elf guaranteed to fail. To me, that was a flaw with 3e's design.

I like having the bonuses be much tighter so that both characters get to make a roll that is actually meaningful.

This to me is a good example of why I think that some of the differences between 4e and 3e fans are irreconcilable. Our likes and dislikes in a lot of cases are just totally opposite.

You know, I think you might be on to something here... something I noticed when running my 4e game last weekend...

The PC's were fighting spiders that had a web attack vs. Ref. Now once the web hit the PC's each had to make a save to not be imobile... I realized then that I don't like the save mechanic as it works in 4e. (Now maybe I shouldn't have been looking at the immobile condition as "the spiders web sticking characters to a certain spot and just viewed it as an imposed condition... but I need some type of narrative for my game.)

You see to me it seemed that a stronger character should be able to break free... but the 50% for everybody save mechanic doesn't take this into consideration. Even my players thought it was odd and grumbled about it a little. Now I know it's a flavor thing and opinions will vary... but I think there should be a difference here, and not some general bonus to saves feat or the like but a bonus because breaking the webs would be easier for a stronger character.

 

[Dragonblade]

You see to me it seemed that a stronger character should be able to break free... but the 50% for everybody save mechanic doesn't take this into consideration. Even my players thought it was odd and grumbled about it a little. Now I know it's a flavor thing and opinions will vary... but I think there should be a difference here, and not some general bonus to saves feat or the like but a bonus because breaking the webs would be easier for a stronger character.

Absolutely agree with you.

Now, I don't mind the base 55% success save mechanic because I understand that this mechanic is not a save like we had in prior editions of D&D, it is really a mechanic to determine duration of effect round by round in such a way that it keeps players involved instead of them leaving the table to go play Nintendo or something.

However, I think it would be perfectly reasonable for a DM to grant a bonus to the save based on a PC's STR given the context of the situation.

 

[nightwyrm]

The save mechanic is a duration mechanic in 4e, it has nothing to do with how strong or fast you are. That is dealt with by your defense. In previous editions, you'd roll 1d4+1 round for duration, does someone with high stats get to reduce their durations?

 

[Imaro]

Absolutely agree with you.

Now, I don't mind the base 55% success save mechanic because I understand that this mechanic is not a save like we had in prior editions of D&D, it is really a mechanic to determine duration of effect round by round in such a way that it keeps players involved instead of them leaving the table to go play Nintendo or something.

However, I think it would be perfectly reasonable for a DM to grant a bonus to the save based on a PC's STR given the context of the situation.

Yes, you could do a DM-fiat call, but then there's the question of sideline cases and the arguing that may arise with your players, for the simple fact that there isn't a clear definition of what effects could or couldn't be affected by certain attributes. Many just aren't explained or justified in any real world context and thus it is hard to judge these without some type of in-game guidance. I think this may be one of the major breakdowns for 3e fans vs. 4e fans. In 3e the web ability causes a totally different condition than a ghoul's power (entanglement vs. paralysis) this alone is a clue that these two powers are different in how they interact with a character. As opposed to 4e where, for the sake of simplicity both of these things are classified as an immobilize condition.

Second, the fact that strength is a factor in breaking the entangle condition of the web... but never in shaking off the "paralysis" condition (always a Fort save then duration) is explicitly stated. Again it is a taste thing but this one change can really feel like apples and oranges depending upon what one likes and is comfortable with.

Note: Another, unforeseen consequence in the 4e section is that certain attributes may become more effective than others unless the DM is willing to make a list and keep track of the number of special cases where attributes do help as opposed to those where they don't (He would also probably end up doing this for the sake of consistency as well).

 

[Imaro]

The save mechanic is a duration mechanic in 4e, it has nothing to do with how strong or fast you are. That is dealt with by your defense. In previous editions, you'd roll 1d4+1 round for duration, does someone with high stats get to reduce their durations?

In 3e you could break free of a web by making a strength check.

EDIT: See and to me this is one of those night and day, feel things that drives a real wedge between those who like 3e and those who like 4e. For some it's cool that everything has been reduced to one of a finite list of conditions and made to operate in the same way, for them it simplifies play, is easier and probably doesn't even seem like that big of a change... for others they like the variety of challenges, situations, and solutions that the different mechanics can bring, even if it takes a little more effort to institute, and 4e's solution feels constrained and boring to them.

 

[BryonD]

I see where you are coming from but my personal preference lies in the opposite direction. I hate it when there is such a wide disparity of save bonuses that the barbarian is almost always guaranteed to make it and elf guaranteed to fail. To me, that was a flaw with 3e's design.

I like having the bonuses be much tighter so that both characters get to make a roll that is actually meaningful.

I don't see a wizard enduring a dwarf barbarian threatening fort save as meaningful. It just sucks all the meaning out of being a tough dwarf barbarian as well as being a lithe elf wizard. The whole point of the character concepts is sacrificed on the alter of homogenization.

If your elf wizard makes that save, then as far as I'm concerned, he isn't an elf wizard, he is just a bundle of stats designed to get past mechanical challenge X.

This to me is a good example of why I think that some of the differences between 4e and 3e fans are irreconcilable. Our likes and dislikes in a lot of cases are just totally opposite.

Yeah, you are right.
It is to bad both systems can not be supported.

 

[nightwyrm]

In 3e you could break free of a web by making a strength check.

Yes, webs and entangles seems to be a special case in 3e. But the durations of a lot of other spells aren't. Your con doesn't reduce the duration of nauseate from stinking cloud, your wis doesn't reduce the duration of charm/dominate person. For a lot of spells, once it gets pass your save, the duration is determined either randomly or completely by the caster.

 

[BryonD]

Now, I don't mind the base 55% success save mechanic because I understand that this mechanic is not a save like we had in prior editions of D&D, it is really a mechanic to determine duration of effect round by round in such a way that it keeps players involved instead of them leaving the table to go play Nintendo or something.

Have you ever actually had players leave the table to go play nintendo?
I honestly have not. It just blows my mind.

I have had characters be out of actions for sure. But the players tend to stay very into the events.

Again, to me it is just night and day in terms of who the game targets as an audience. And it is a shame to me that the easily distracted by nintendo market got preference.

oh well

 

[BryonD]

Yes, webs and entangles seems to be a special case in 3e. But the durations of a lot of other spells aren't. Your con doesn't reduce the duration of nauseate from stinking cloud, your wis doesn't reduce the duration of charm/dominate person. For a lot of spells, once it gets pass your save, the duration is determined either randomly or completely by the caster.

I agree with you.
3E has some issues that could really use some correction. But instead the problem exceptions of 3E were turned into core rules in 4E.

 

[nightwyrm]

Have you ever actually had players leave the table to go play nintendo?
I honestly have not. It just blows my mind.

Not nintendo, no. But I've seen people go away from the table and sit on the couch and surf internet on their blackberry. And these weren't teenager, they're professionals in their late twenties, early thirties. And we were playing 4e with its shorter rounds and saving throw mechanics. If they know they would be out of action for 3, 4 rounds in 3e, they would probably fire up Rock Band.