D&D 5E So what exactly is Wizards working on?

[Dire Bare]

I remember a Youtube video of Mearls trying to talk-up 4E in 2008 either just prior to or just after its release and him saying something like "This is the fastest, best, version of D&D yet". I thought it was funny because I could sense that he didn't really believe what he was saying.

I bet you're wrong. I bet Mike was being 100% real and did believe that 4E was the bees knees. 4E was an awesome game and a bold reinvention of the D&D game. It ultimately was not successful at becoming the new D&D and I think Mearls and crew learned a lot about what makes D&D what it is. That doesn't mean that they were "phoning it in" when creating and releasing 4E.

I also bet that looking back, Mearls and crew have mixed feelings about 4E. I bet they are proud of the excellent game they developed and the bold experiment in trying to continue the relevance of the game, and I also bet that they also see the flaws in their design process that they used to give us 5E, which will hopefully be the sustainable edition for quite some time.

 

[Jester David]

I bet you're wrong. I bet Mike was being 100% real and did believe that 4E was the bees knees. 4E was an awesome game and a bold reinvention of the D&D game. It ultimately was not successful at becoming the new D&D and I think Mearls and crew learned a lot about what makes D&D what it is. That doesn't mean that they were "phoning it in" when creating and releasing 4E.

I also bet that looking back, Mearls and crew have mixed feelings about 4E. I bet they are proud of the excellent game they developed and the bold experiment in trying to continue the relevance of the game, and I also bet that they also see the flaws in their design process that they used to give us 5E, which will hopefully be the sustainable edition for quite some time.

"Fastest" though? I'll buy people believing it was the best. But fastest?

 

[Dire Bare]

"Fastest" though? I'll buy people believing it was the best. But fastest?

Huh? Where did I say "fastest"? I'm not even sure what you mean.

 

[Kramodlog]

Paizo is really the only "other business" that puts out remotely the amount of product we're discussing though. Not Cubicle7's The One Ring, nor Fantasy Flight's Star Wars RPG... hell even World of Darkness which is famous for the amount of product White Wolf churned out in the 90s has a much more limited release schedule today under Onyx Path... none of the rest put out a hardcover monthly. Only Pathfinder.

Yeah, I know. I like to try to use synonyms when I write. They aren't always adequate.

To be frank, I'm pretty tired of the "Paizo does it differently" argument. But I still use it, right? Like I said, it is the elephant in the room. Hard to ignore.

I'll call it now. Two years from now, that will not be the case. Either Paizo will throttle back the pen and paper release schedule dramatically, or they will have to release a Pathfinder 2.0. You were the one who posted the link to a store owner stating "Boring Pathfinder releases have hurt Boring Pathfinder sales." There's simply very little exciting content left that Paizo hasn't already covered, and we're currently in the long dark teatime of the Pathfinder fan's soul.

Maybe. I'm thinking PDFs changes the dynamic. They are cheap, you get them immediately when you buy them and they are subjected to impulse buy. Paizo prints a limited number of their books (except the core book). Once they are gone, they are gone*. But PDFs stay, have been paid for and they have a low inventory cost.

Someone is starting a campaign in Cheliax**? They can go shop for the Cheliax supplement even if it is out of print. When shopping they will also see other stuff. They made a supplement about Devils and Hell's hierarchy? Cool, I'll add it to the pile, it is cheap. Champions of Corruption? Cool, my players will dig that! Legendary Games made a supplement about Mythic Devils and it cost 5$? Sure, it refreshes old monsters.

So initially it was supposed to cost 12$ and now it cost 30$ and the OGL was useful.

Wizards has been through this process twice already, and decided they're not interested in oversaturating the market twice in a row. This is Pathfinder's first rodeo, and they've done phenomenally to date, but now they're going to need to change tactics if they don't want to get thrown off the bull.

It is true that there were lots of books printed, but what hurt 3.5 is World of Warcraft. Ryan Dancey mentioned it in a vid. There was also that whole "brand must make 50 millions or something" policy that Hasbro imposed. It killed 3.5 and paved the way for 4e. It is true that a lot of books were printed for 4e, but a lot of people seem to use it as the reason for it demise. It is sweeping under the rug the fact that it just wasn't a hit with gamers.

Now I'm not saying that saturation doesn't exist. Just that WotC's release schedule, at least what we know if it, is a bit extreme.

*There are exception for very popular books, like the Distant World supplement. It was so popular they reprinted it.
**Sort of a fascist state under Asmodeus' thumb. Lots of Devils and pacts with Devils.

 

[Kramodlog]

I think you are ignoring the third alternative: that WotC can make more money spending its finite capital on other projects, like MtG

Sure, but then why bother with D&D at all then?

or overseeing the production of licensed products.

Of D&D or MtG?

 

[Jester David]

Huh? Where did I say "fastest"? I'm not even sure what you mean.

Mearls said fastest. You said he was "being 100% real", which meant you were saying you thought he believed that 4e was the fasted version of D&D ever.

 

[Manchu]

Non-rhetorical question: are the two factors you contrast related? Is part of why D&D speaks to a broader audience is because of its slimmer profile?

I think the current team emphasized and are emphasizing slimness to leverage the broader audience.

 

[pemerton]

Sure, but then why bother with D&D at all then?

Because they believe that (i) they can make money by authoring and releasing a new set of core books, and (ii) that this 'restoration' of D&D will underpin a broader D&D-brand strategy.

Achieving (i) does not require publishing a large number of supplements. Obviously WotC thinks the same about (ii); [MENTION=957]BryonD[/MENTION], I think in one of the other threads on this issue, has expressed doubts about this.

Of D&D or MtG?

I was thinking of D&D licensing. Does MtG have the brand recognition to support a licensing strategy like D&D? I assume not, but I may not be in touch with the relevant demograph

 

[DEFCON 1]

Mearls said fastest. You said he was "being 100% real", which meant you were saying you thought he believed that 4e was the fasted version of D&D ever.

I wouldn't be at all shocked that if at the time of 4E's release... he and the others might've genuinely thought it was fastest due simply to knowledge they already had of how the game plays, and how explicit each facet of combat was (without the need for DM adjudication or looking stuff up/making rulings, which often leads to arguments/discussions at the table of how things should play out.)

If they were all masters of the game, I could certainly see the table during combat where each of them had all their powers printed out and configured for easy reference, during the game already figured out their turns beforehand on other player's turns, made their mini move/attack on their turn quickly, and then moved onto the next person. With only the first set of books available to them (and thus much less complicated additional rules that came in with other classes and such), he could genuinely think he was telling the truth.

Of course... then the reality set in of all the players who WEREN'T that organized / up on the rules / not willing to puzzle out the "optimum" strategy for themselves each and every turn, and DMs who were the same way. The game then did slooooooooow down for many tables, rendering Mike's beliefs ultimately incorrect. So I wouldn't say he was deliberately lying to anyone... he might've just been blinded to the faults due to his own experiences.

*EDITED TO ADD*

Let's also not forget that he might've been thinking of 4E's initial speed when compared to 3.5... but not initial core book 3.5, but the Frankenstein's Monster of 3.5 once all the extra additional material and splat stuff got incorporated that he had built into his game. That's probably the last part of 3.5 he remembered, and yeah, I could see basic 4E running faster than that stuff. I think ANY edition's initial gameplay with just the three core books runs easier and faster than any version that has several years of splats merged into it.

 

[Manbearcat]

Sure, but then why bother with D&D at all then?

Because they believe that (i) they can make money by authoring and releasing a new set of core books, and (ii) that this 'restoration' of D&D will underpin a broader D&D-brand strategy.

Achieving (i) does not require publishing a large number of supplements. Obviously WotC thinks the same about (ii); [MENTION=957]BryonD[/MENTION], I think in one of the other threads on this issue, has expressed doubts about this.

Absolutely, there is plenty of precedence for this in other fields. Take the United States insurance industry for example. It is well understood that, especially in the most catastrophe-vulnerable markets such as Florida and California, homeowner's insurance is not a money-maker at all. In most years, you're lucky to just break even. Further, in certain years, major insurance carriers must endure uncomfortable (putting it lightly) loss ratios on their HO policies. However, maintaining an HO presence in volatile marketplaces is an overall brand strategy because it serves as a gateway for the real money; multiline insurance and/or access to auto.

It seems to me that this is the paradigm that Hasbro has in mind with their TTRPG marketplace at this point (hence 5e being the least controversial/offensive D&D to date).