arbados said:
Lets re-cap: When I reach 20th level what do I get:
It's from 21th, not 20th. With 20th you're still "only" high-level and all the usual rules apply.
- a+1 for all my saving throws.
- a +1 to attack bonus (no additional attacks).
Not really: you get +1 to your attacks on every odd level, and +1 to your attacks every even level. That equals the AB-progression of a wizard (the weakest there is) and the three strong saves (just like the monk's). So most will get a serious advantage in their saves, but the attack bonus will be worse than before (unless they do something about it, e.g take the right feat).
I think that's OK: If you don't level the saves, there are enormous gaps by the time you have reached 30th level or so, meaning that the same DC could mean a ridiculous attemt at annoying you or your certain failure, depending on what kind of save it is.
As the BAB is some part of class advancement, and much of it got cut out and replaced by bonus feats, it's right they did it here, too: you can take epic prowess and increase your BAB by one (a fighter could continue to increase his BAB the way it did before and still pick up some epic feats every third level!).
If they further increased the attacks, it would really be to much: a two weapon fighter can get already 8 attacks, 10 with speed weapons, and more would be really slowing the game down (8 are already quite much!)
- normal skill progression.
That's not a big deal. I wouldn't want them to be worse, and it would not be good to make them better!
- the bonus feats which vary from class to class (and now I can choose an epic one, but if my memory serves me correctly I'm not sure if any classes get one at 20th level).
They're a replacement for class features that don't improve beyond 20th. As they are epic feats, they are probably stronger than the class features, but not much so. Often you can buy feats that have quite similar effects as the class features they replace (additional spell slots, attack bonuses....)
If I was 21st I would get the normal progressive level feat (and I can choose an epic one).
If you're epic, you're at least 21st. And you can now chose epic feats, of course, which makes the power curve a little steeper I think.
Only sensible, as you got HD before. Otherwise, your average 45th-level Wizard probably still have less hit points than your average 15th-level Barbarian
-choice of an epic prestige class if I meet the requirements.
Yes, if you meet the requirements. And they tend to be steep, especially since you are probably already high-level (15th or more) when you learn about them, what makes it even harder to meet the prerequisites if you don't happen to have advanced at the right lane:
- For an agent retriever, you have to max out Gather Information (not taken to often I think) and have many ranks in knowledge(the planes) to make it by 21st level. Otherwise there are probably a couple more levels until you have the required 24/15 ranks. And I don't think that so many characters that would like to be an agent retriever are lawful...
- The cosmic descryer is somewhat easy to manage if you're already a conjurer with keen interest in the planes, but there's still that knowledge(the planes) 24 ranks...
- Divine Emmisaries must be paladins, blackguards or divine champions. They must complete a really big quest, and then it's still at the DM's discretion whether they can make it. The Great Smiting with CHA 25 requirement doesn't make it to easy, too. also, BAB +23 can't be had before 25th level
- Epic Infiltrators must have INT 25, what could be tricky with a rogue character, but at least the bluff and disguise (24 ranks each) shouldn't be to far out.
- Guardian paramounts need DEX25 and uncanny dodge and evasion, what makes them best for a rogue, but I can't see to many rogues heading for that class.
- The high proselytizer is needs epic leadership and 5th-level divine spells, (and 24 ranks in knowledge(religion), but that should be no problem) so you either need a VERY charismatic cleric (cause of the CHA 25) or a Paladin that already has 2 epic feats (epic leadership, 5th-level slot)
- For the legendary dreadnought: bab +23 means +25th level at least, 15 ranks in intimidate mean that you have to be a barb or 27th level (unless you multiclass), and improved bull rush is also not the most popular feat I think
- The perfect wight needs selv-concealment, which in turn needs DEX 30, and 30 ranks in hide and tumble. that means CL 27 (the skills are usually maxed out for a rogue, and dex 30 can be achieved by then).
- the union sentinel needs a littel familiarity with the city of Union (knowledge(local) 8 ranks, be resident of said city), lawful alignment, bab +21 (quite easy for warrior types) and armor skin. although it's quite simple to achieve this (although you need time to get familiar with the city), it's not really for PC's but for NPC's.
It takes its time to achieve those requirements, mostly 5 levels into epic territory, and I don't know whether so many campaigns go much longer:we plan for Lv 27-30, and I don't think many will go beyond 40th, so you must work long and hard for your EPrC and it's not sure whether you can take to many levels of it afterwards...
I don't like the EPrC's to much (but that's partly cause there ain't one that would fit my character who's turning epic by the end of the year) But they have a couple of really strong abilities (as It should be: the prerequisites are high enough)
OK there are some pretty cool feats, but will epic toughness make you that much more powerful compared to my 18th level character.
It's a level worth of HP for some characters, and 4 for others.
And there are other feats that are really nice: automatic metamagics (especially automatic quicken spell, although that's for 27th+ characters.) and multispell, Damage Reduction, trap sense, devastating crit, the wild shape feats, epic skill focus, exceptional deflection and infinite deflection, intensify spell, improved spell capacity......
What I am trying to say is that advancement into epic levels doesn't instantly make you the killer of all "cannon fodder" of 19th level and below.
20th. And of course, you're right. Turning 21st-level doesn't mean you turn from a normal chap into a mass destruction machine.
It would also be quite rediculous that way. But I do say that the power curve get's a bit steeper than before
Don't get me wrong, I LIKE THIS very much. I was worried that once my characters reached epic levels they would wipe the floor with everything in my Monster Manual. I tend to strongly disagree with that statement.
Sure, we always got the great wyrms and the terrasque ;-)
No, seriously: I'm playing in a 16th-level party (three characters) and we are already mopping the floor with most of the enemies in there (the CR20+ are, of course, still a little to hard...) but there are always a couple of monsters hard enough to put everyone in his place! Also, you can beef them up a little by addin HD or class levels. And it's always a factor how you play those beasts!
But I see a little problem here: the enemies out of MMI are already a little to weak for us, and if we turn epic, the book will soon be almost total useless (and I think there are many other parties out there that witness the same phenomenon), but most of the monsters of ELH are just insanely powerful. Guess we need MM2 real bad!
Yes, once an epic character reaches 27th level they should quite handily beat my 18th level character to a pulp, but wouldn't my 18th level character be able to do the same to a 9th level one?!
Both are 9 levels apart.
Should think so. 5 levels difference should make it almost impossible for the lower one to win. but I think that the difference between 27th - 18th and 18th - 9th could almost be the same. And while the 18th has double the class levels of the 9th, the 27th has only 50% more....
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Just becasue you call them epic doesn't make all that big of a difference in the grand scheme of things.
What do you think? [/QUOTE]
Yes, you are right. The difference between 20th-level and 21st-level is no big gap, but I think it is a little bigger than that between 19th and 20th. Although I have not yet played epic characters (I have a 16th-level Bladesinger, which should have reached 20th-level by the end of the year, and we are going to play on at least 7 or so levels), but I think the increase of relative power is noticable, but not enormous. Just as it should be.
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