D&D 5E So what's exactly wrong with the fighter?

I think the point got missed here. Sacrosanct offered the idea that a freeform game allows more player freedom. I've proven that to be false. In his game, I cannot do what I could easily do in a 4e game. OTOH, 4e has mechanics in place to adjudicate player actions that aren't covered by the rules, so the idea of "getting an advantage" doesn't apply. .

Wait, what? No you didn't. Nothing of the sort. All you proved was that in AD&D you wouldn't even try because you knew "it wouldn't even fly" when obviously that's not the case. You actually proved MY point, not yours. The difference is that in the way I handled it, ANYONE could attempt it ANY TIME; you didn't need to be a 5th level fighter with that particular ability, and only be able to do it once per day.

How is that more freeform? It's the opposite of more freeform because you wouldn't even try. Even now you doubled down and said you "can't do it" after we've already had a discussion that that isn't the case. Pardon me, but i have a hard time seeing how something that limits you more is "more freeform". That's one of the most backwards things I've heard.

I gotta say, this is one of the most baffling things I've heard every time it comes up. It is a universal truth that the less instructions you give, the more diverse and varied the outcome. This is not up for debate, and is something that everyone believes except 4e fans it seems.

If you tell someone to make a paper airplane and that's it, you will get more variation than if you tell someone HOW to make the paper airplane
If you tell someone to come up with an equation to get a desired result, you will get more variation than if you tell them how to do the equation
If I asked you all to come up with an animal, you'll get more variation than if I told you to come up with an animal that starts with a B.

The less restrained you to come up with something, the more creative you will be as opposed to being restricted. Why this is even up for argument is beyond me. And every time it comes up in D&D, the only response is "because my DM may say no." If you won't think out of the box or try to be creative because you're worried you might not get your way? That's a you problem, sorry. It in no way disproves the universal truth that more freedom a person has, the more variation you're going to get.
 
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Wait, what? No you didn't. Nothing of the sort. All you proved was that in AD&D you wouldn't even try because you knew "it wouldn't even fly" when obviously that's not the case. You actually proved MY point, not yours. The difference is that in the way I handled it, ANYONE could attempt it ANY TIME; you didn't need to be a 5th level fighter with that particular ability, and only be able to do it once per day.

How is that more freeform? It's the opposite of more freeform because you wouldn't even try. Even now you doubled down and said you "can't do it" after we've already had a discussion that that isn't the case. Pardon me, but i have a hard time seeing how something that limits you more is "more freeform". That's one of the most backwards things I've heard.

I gotta say, this is one of the most baffling things I've heard every time it comes up. It is a universal truth that the less instructions you give, the more diverse and varied the outcome. This is not up for debate, and is something that everyone believes except 4e fans it seems.

If you tell someone to make a paper airplane and that's it, you will get more variation than if you tell someone HOW to make the paper airplane
If you tell someone to come up with an equation to get a desired result, you will get more variation than if you tell them how to do the equation
If I asked you all to come up with an animal, you'll get more variation than if I told you to come up with an animal that starts with a B.

The less restrained you to come up with something, the more creative you will be as opposed to being restricted. Why this is even up for argument is beyond me. And every time it comes up in D&D, the only response is "because my DM may say no." If you won't think out of the box or try to be creative because you're worried you might not get your way? That's a you problem, sorry. It in no way disproves the universal truth that more freedom a person has, the more variation you're going to get.

That would be true if you also hadn't refused my request. Anybody could attempt it at any time, and they'd get the same answer - no.

Look, it works like this:

If I attempt to simply murder the opponent, I don't have to do any negotiation. I don't have to tell you how I attack or anything of the sort. I state, "I attack" roll my dice and i'm done. Zero negotiation.

If I attempt to impose a fairly minor status effect (a -2 AC isn't exactly earth shaking) I need to do the following:

  • Make the initial proposal.
  • Detail how my proposal is actually going to work, which needs:
  • a fairly detailed knowledge of how armour works and
  • the ability to communicate that knowledge to you in such a way that you still think it's plausible.

At any point in time you can veto the idea. I not only had to have an idea, but I had to sell it to you on how it works. I've never worn armour, I've never swung a sword. I have no freaking clue how I could damage someone's armor in order to impose a -2 AC status effect. I honestly don't know. But, it seems like something that might work, so, I'll pitch the idea. Which got shot down in flames.

So, instead, i'll stick to just dealing damage, which requires no negotiation. Funny how I can impose DEATH on an NPC without a single line of negotiation, but, impose a -2AC? Holy crap, that means I'm trying to break the game!!! It wasn't "Well, ok, but, you'll do half damage" or "Well ok, but no damage" or "You can try with a penalty". It was none of those things. It was a flat out refusal.

So, no, freeform does not lead to more freedom. It runs slap dash into the DM who is going to set up hoops and roadblocks and examine every single suggestion for the possible whiff of "trying to pull a fast one". Teach someone how to make an airplane and you get a thousand different airplanes, all of which can fly. Hand someone a sheet of paper and tell them to make an airplane and you get a single kind of airplane every time.

And, this rolls back around to the issue that some people have with fighters. Casters can deal damage and inflict status effects all the time because magic. A 1st level wizard casts shocking grasp, deals damage and prevents opportunity attacks. Casts Ray of Frost and drops 10 feet out of the target's speed for a round. But, if a fighter tries to do the exact same thing, he won't be allowed. The DM slaps on a -4 attack penalty, and/or makes it an effect only - you can knock someone prone, but, you can't damage them while doing so. You can push someone back, but, you can't hurt them while doing so. So on and so forth.

That, right there, is the issue that some people have with fighters. Fighters do one thing and one thing only - deal direct damage. They're very good at dealing direct damage, but, at the end of the day, that's all a 5e fighter can do. A cleric can Bless three people and up their saving throws, but a fighter can only impose disadvantage on a single attack, and he has to declare before the attack is even rolled, meaning that it's wasted many times, because the first attack misses anyway.

The reason that people have issues with the fighter is that fighters have gone back to being very, very limited classes. If you liked the 4e fighter, a 5e fighter is a big let down.
 
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The difference between a general combat option and granting a player agency with a resource is pretty significant.

Is it? Explain the difference. If a class can perform a general combat option in a much superior fashion to another character, is that not a class feature/power? What is the difference between a class power as they used in 4E from a wizard to a fighter when the powers were often reskinned version of a similar power to another class in terms of damage and effect. How does this provide any more differentiation and agency than the a maneuver or feat the martial can take in 3E?

Give me a concrete explanation of the difference. Both mechanically allow the player to alter the world using their abilities to do so.

The difference in caster balance between 3e or 4e and 5e would be more nearly relevant, but OK, regardless of what you think about a particular edition:
The player with a wildly overpowered caster is going to exercise more control over the narrative. Not just directly, because his decisions matter more than any other players, not just in concept since his spells twist the reality of the narrative, but indirectly, because the DM must shape the situations, story, and campaign around challenging and limiting that character.

The DM has to account for any overpowered combination including martial concepts. Are you trying to claim overpowered martial concepts did not exist? They most certainly did. The entire 3E game was one of immense power. Do you think high level fighter damage was very easy to deal with? Fighters in our campaign almost always obtained a ring of freedom of movement to prevent them from being grappled or held. Once they had that, they eliminated one of the major impediments an enemy could place on them. Then they hammered for immense damage that only the most powerful creatures could stand up to for more than a round or two.

The biggest abuses in 3E were wizards and their nearly unlimited spell selection. Give them time, they can set almost anything up. But martials had plenty of abusable options. So don't pretend only casters created problems for DMs. That would be a fallacy. Martials could solve a bunch of problems by simply threatening the enemy. Not much but perhaps a high level caster would have much of a chance against them.
 
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What's wrong with players having some narrative control?

Explain how they don't have narrative control? They decide how they defeat the challenges in their path. There wouldn't even be a narrative if they didn't have narrative control with their ability to defeat obstacles. The entire narrative is driven by their actions.

Or do you mean "why cant' they design the adventure?" or "why can't they force the DM to create things at their whim?" That's not asking for narrative control, that's asking for the DM to do whatever they feel like doing. The game isn't built to do that well. No game is unless you're just playing story time where people just sit around telling pretend stories about what their made up character is doing.
 

I am not your clerk. Go borrow a 4e PHB, Martial Power, whatever, and take note of the powers that do things beyond feats. There, done.


Speaking of...

Unsubstantiated Claim.

Unsubstantiated Claim.

Unsubstantiated Claim.

For damage to be "unreal," it has to be understood in the context and math of the game. Did a 3e fighter remove a greater % of an enemy's hp in 1 round than a 4e ranger? (Both are basically strikers in their own games).

Yes. Did you play 3E? If you did, you would know this was the case. 3E martials could annihilate giants in single hits. I had a player that was critting for 200 points of damage in a single hit. He would often exceed 200 points of damage in a single round. If you add in Pathfinder, it gets even more unreal. A pathfinder barbarian was unreal in their ability to destroy opponents and take damage. I had to give things in Pathfinder 4000 hit points to deal with martial damage output. I had to give hit points in the 2000 range in 3.5 to stand up to martial damage.

4E did not have critical hits anywhere near 3E. Maybe you didn't play 3E, I don't know. If you had, you would know that martial damage output far exceeded even by percentage 4E damage output save for a few corner cases where rule text wasn't clear like that Rain of Blades ability the ranger could take in 4E.



I don't think you understand what I mean by "narrative power." I don't think you want to, either.

Narrative power is a term folks like you throw out that means next to nothing in a DM managed game. No class has narrative power in a DM managed game other than the DM gives them. You don't get to tell me to make stuff up at your whim. You can ask a DM. Maybe he does it, maybe he doesn't. If you want to play a game where another person's mind is controlling the world, then you must abide by what he feels like doing. It doesn't matter if you're a fighter or a wizard as far as narrative control goes.

You just replied with "I got nothing. So I'll be a jerk about it." That's fine because you got nothing. 4E did nothing more to give martials narrative power than did previous editions. I did read the 4E PHB. That's why I know that is the case.

3E martials could affect the world far more than 4E martials. Feats were often more powerful than 4E powers. Maybe you didn't know how to build characters very well, that's why you didn't see that in 3E. Martials that knew how to build characters in 3E, they were as hard to build encounters for as casters. Their damage output put 4E martials to shame. Their feats allowed them to do amazing things that far exceed what a 4E martial could accomplish.

Once again, you got nothing. If you want to go rounds with me comparing the power of a 3E martial equivalent to a 4E martial equivalent, we can do that, especially if you want to incorporate Pathfinder which boosted martial power quite a bit from the already extreme 3.5 range.
 
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if you allow PCs to do above and beyond effects without any risk of a drawback, that's all you're going to get.
This is precisely the argument in favor of use-limited abilities. First, it completely avoids ruining the game's core math. Second, it can be much more easily balanced against standard attacks. And third, of course, the higher tier debuffs (blind, stun, sicken, etc.) can't be easily balanced on an at-will basis, so limiting their use opens up abilities that shouldn't logically be out of reach of weapon-users.
Obryn correctly points out rationing as one option (and it is at the core of 4e's PC-build system).

Another approach that I'm quite fond of is the gamble: the player has to make a check to pull of their stunt, and if the check fails then they suffer some sort of setback. (Details will vary based on fictional context, the sort of action the player is using - Minor, Standard, etc - and my mood at the time.) Sometimes my players take the gamble; sometimes they choose to play safe and don't.
 

I gotta say, this is one of the most baffling things I've heard every time it comes up. It is a universal truth that the less instructions you give, the more diverse and varied the outcome. This is not up for debate, and is something that everyone believes except 4e fans it seems.

If you tell someone to make a paper airplane and that's it, you will get more variation than if you tell someone HOW to make the paper airplane
If you tell someone to come up with an equation to get a desired result, you will get more variation than if you tell them how to do the equation
If I asked you all to come up with an animal, you'll get more variation than if I told you to come up with an animal that starts with a B.

The less restrained you to come up with something, the more creative you will be as opposed to being restricted. Why this is even up for argument is beyond me. And every time it comes up in D&D, the only response is "because my DM may say no." If you won't think out of the box or try to be creative because you're worried you might not get your way? That's a you problem, sorry. It in no way disproves the universal truth that more freedom a person has, the more variation you're going to get.
Well, I know that one of the hallmarks of caster characters in AD&D is how they never, ever attempt to use a spell creatively or outside of its 'label' usage. :lol:
 

You just replied with "I got nothing. So I'll be a jerk about it." That's fine because you got nothing. 4E did nothing more to give martials narrative power than did previous editions. I did read the 4E PHB. That's why I know that is the case.

3E martials could affect the world far more than 4E martials. Feats were often more powerful than 4E powers. Maybe you didn't know how to build characters very well, that's why you didn't see that in 3E. Martials that knew how to build characters in 3E, they were as hard to build encounters for as casters. Their damage output put 4E martials to shame. Their feats allowed them to do amazing things that far exceed what a 4E martial could accomplish.

Once again, you got nothing. If you want to go rounds with me comparing the power of a 3E martial equivalent to a 4E martial equivalent, we can do that, especially if you want to incorporate Pathfinder which boosted martial power quite a bit from the already extreme 3.5 range.

Why would I want to "go rounds with you?" Are you being serious? "You got nothing." What, are you in a movie right now, or something? Where are you in your head right now that you would respond like this? No, seriously. Whatever it is that has you acting this way, I genuinely hope it improves.

Anyway, you did make unsubstantiated claims, I'm sorry. Everywhere I noted them. Unless you are including the epic-level handbook, I don't know the feat that lets you accomplish the example above "Crack the Shell" just for starters. Or "Come and Get It" for another. Could fighters daze or stun with feats in 3e? I didn't play Pathfinder, so maybe the feats that let you do so are in there. I don't think they are, though.

But then, as you admit in another thread, you haven't played enough 4e to speak on it...

After reading your posts about low-powered 5e casters in one thread, your avowed preference for a more "casters rule" kind of game in another, and then this

"Narrative power is a term folks like you throw out that means next to nothing in a DM managed game. No class has narrative power in a DM managed game other than the DM gives them. You don't get to tell me to make stuff up at your whim. You can ask a DM. Maybe he does it, maybe he doesn't. If you want to play a game where another person's mind is controlling the world, then you must abide by what he feels like doing. It doesn't matter if you're a fighter or a wizard as far as narrative control goes.

...which I find totally bizarre, it's obvious we will never agree on anything. I also have nothing to prove to you (and again, I'm not your clerk), so despite your generous offer to "go rounds with you" (I mean, really...) I think it's better we just add each other to our respective ignore lists.

Good Gaming to you.
 
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The less restrained you to come up with something, the more creative you will be as opposed to being restricted. Why this is even up for argument is beyond me. And every time it comes up in D&D, the only response is "because my DM may say no." If you won't think out of the box or try to be creative because you're worried you might not get your way? That's a you problem, sorry. It in no way disproves the universal truth that more freedom a person has, the more variation you're going to get.

I know for a fact that this isn't true for me, which means it isn't a universal truth at all. The more valid options I have the harder I find it to make a decision, I get overwhelmed and have difficulty seeing the big picture. I prefer having a smaller filtered down set of options I can make an informed choice from, or at least an educated guess. Overwhelming me with choices just makes me feel every choice is random and that I'm losing agency.

There is a spectrum of opinion on this topic like in many others - people have different perceptions and learning styles, some want the freedom to go wild, others want limits to provide structure and direction and feel lost without it, most are in the middle somewhere. And people with different tastes may clash over it, obviously, as if some players want more structure and others want less structure there needs to be a compromise or a parting of the ways.
 

Is it? Explain the difference.
The difference between a general combat option and granting agency to a player via a resource is pretty significant. Obviously, one component of it is relative exclusivity. Choosing to do something anyone could have done is not that big a deal. Another is how it's resolved. Improvisation, for instance, is a very poor source of player agency, because it's really all in the DM's court, and 5e all but defaults to that, being very DM-empowering. A standard combat option (I'm trying to think of one other than attack) has more agency, since the player can probably expect the basic rules to be followed, though, again, anyone could have done it & anything unique/interesting that might happen as a result is probably up to the DM. A resource with explicit effects, like using a slot to cast fireball, OTOH, is higher-agency: it's dramatic, it's not something just anyone could have done, and it's a meaningful choice to use it or not, because it's a resource that must be managed.


If a class can perform a general combat option in a much superior fashion to another character, is that not a class feature/power?
If you take that far enough, sure. If you have a +2 to all your untrained jump checks, there's not really any agency, for instance. If you get a much larger bonus, and can exceed the normal maximums under the rules (jump more than your speed for instance), or jump on an entirely different scale than normal (like 30' straight up), you've got some more agency, because your presence brings an option to the table that other characters' presumably don't, but, since you can do it any time, it's mostly just your presence that changes the story, not your decisions. If there's a resource involved to do it, especially one that also has alternate uses, then that's even more agency, since your decisions of when and how to use the resource can make a huge difference to the story. So, even though one version of the ability might be 'more powerful,' because it's always available and does the exact same thing, it actually represents less agency, since you'll just always use it when it's applicable - a 'no brainer' decision is a less dramatic decision.

What is the difference between {two abilities similar} in terms of damage and effect {just re-skinned}? How does this provide any more differentiation and agency than the a {combat option} or feat?
Two classes having the same ability doesn't necessarily eliminate agency. For instance, the Druid, Cleric, and Bard can all cast Cure Wounds - it's the exact same spell, just re-skinned as divine prayer, nature magic, or arcane song - yet, if the party has only one of those classes, it's essentially unique to the character. Even if all three are present, the limited resources of each are still managed separately by the player, giving them some control over how things play out (each makes decisions: do you use slots for other spells, reserve them for healing, do you cure an ally who's low so he stays up, or wait for him to drop so the 'extra' damage inflicted by the enemy is 'wasted' as he heals up from zero, at the cost of him needing to stand on his turn, etc). The decisions of those characters make a real difference in how the game plays out. In contrast, the Champion Fighter might use this or that combat option (though there aren't many) or choose a feat that lets him do even more damage, but his choices are few and simple, and his contribution varies the most based on die rolls (crits, cold streaks or whatever), not those decisions).

The DM has to account for any overpowered combination including martial concepts.
Absolutely. Martial characters might churn out huge DPR, for instance. Locking them down so they can't attack, or giving the monsters outrageous hps or AC or resistance or immunity to weapons can compensate. That's fairly simple. The range of 'broken' things a 'Tier 1' caster can potentially do, OTOH, requires much more involved schemes to counter.

So don't pretend only casters created problems for DMs.
Tier 4-6 characters certainly presented the DM with challenges, too. Not just in trying to integrate them into the campaign in meaningful ways, but because even a lowly class could be optimized to do one thing to the point of being broken. Between needing to coddle most builds of an inferior class, and clamp down on the few abusive optimized examples, the DM certainly had a problem. Tier 1-2 classes presented a different set of problems, as they didn't even need to be intentionally optimized to be game-breaking, a well-meaning player could scuttle a campaign by accident, if the DM wasn't careful. The more imbalanced the game, the more headaches from the DM. It's easy to think that only the classes that 'broke high' were the offenders, but, really, any imbalance, high or low, could be a real problem.

It is, though, something most who have played D&D for a long time have learned to cope with one way or another. DMs can constrain overpowered characters, uplift underpowered ones, and keep the campaign varied and suprising to provide roving spot-light 'balance.' Players can build to concept, can eschew poor choices and even optimize, or collectively aim for the same general power levels with each of their builds.

All of those strategies still work in 5e.


Explain how they don't have narrative control? They decide how they defeat the challenges in their path. There wouldn't even be a narrative if they didn't have narrative control with their ability to defeat obstacles. The entire narrative is driven by their actions.
If your decision on 'how to defeat a challenge' is to hit it, or not hit it, you'll obviously choose hit it almost every time. That's participating in the story, but not having much agency in it. You could essentially go on strike and refuse to do anything useful, but you can't make meaningful decisions. If the DM puts in multiple enemies in each encounter, with each being more than just a clone of the others, or, at least, being positioned or armed differently or /something/ like that, then, at least, the order in which you choose to attack them might make some difference to that one scene. Now, if the DM gives you a few magical arrows of slaying that kill with a single hit, then the decision of whether you attack & whom you attack (with those few arrows) becomes a lot more meaningful. So, no matter how benighted the character, the DM can always build some opportunities for player influence into the narrative - ultimately, that's the DM exercising narrative control, but the player should at least /feel/ like he's sharing in it.
In contrast, a character given well-defined resources by the system gives his player some narrative control, in that how he chooses to use those resources will likely matter, and the choice can be made with some confidence, since he knows how they're usually supposed to work. Of course, just as the DM can create opportunities for the low-agency character to exercise some influence, the DM can block or neutralize the higher-agency character.
 

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