So what's gold gonna be for?

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Well, sure, you can. But it's not a viable option in 3E - by spending your gold on anything other than magical items, you wreck the curve and, especially if everyone doesn't do the same, you can no longer contribute in the same fashion.

The point from folks saying "you can't do that in 3E" isn't that you're outright inhibited from doing so, but that if you do, you can't play in the same game as anyone else. A 10th level character with recommended items is challenged by a CR10... a 10th level character without items often can't hurt it. That is a problem, and makes that option a non-solution.

You arent as powerful as the other guy no. But presumably you play what you enjoy, be it a guy that blows his money on outer planar hookers or mead from Kords own festhall or on another +3 sword. You can play a fighter/sorcerer/wizard/monk, despite that combo stinking, and take a bunch of garbage feats like stealthy and athletics. You play the style you enjoy. Its an option, even if its "sub optimal".

What I think sucks is demanding everyone cop to that play style, ala Harrison Bergeron.

Magic item influence on character net power is supposedly being toned down for 4e... which I totally think is a good thing. That also helps remove the imbalance issue. However I think its a bad idea for the game as a whole to ditch the ability for players to buy and trade magical equipment.

 

[Rechan]

All I'm saying is that it's possible to keep the traditional "kill things, take stuff" mechanic for some games but use those rewards to fuel other play styles.

Just as long as that isn't the only viable option for GP.

And as long as say, spending your money on a keep doesn't cripple you when you y'know, try to defend it from a dragon.

Peasant: "Well if only you had bought a +2 Icy Burst with that money you spent to get us plumbing!"

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Context, context, context!

I was responding to the assertion: "bribes are only useful on Lawful Evil planes".

My point was that right now all alignments want money.

As above, so below.

Cheers, -- N

Okay, I'm not sure what you're getting at anymore. Rechan said this:

Sure, it's nice if you're in a type of campaign where that sort've thing is useful. Not so much when you're traveling the planes or going after that Evil Lich or Nefarious Blackguard.

And you said this:

I would disagree -- when my PCs travel the planes, they find border guards, tariffs, taxes and tolls all over the place -- particularly the more Lawful of the Evil planes.

They've bribed Yugoloth mercs to abandon their current masters en route to killing those masters.

Evil minions are exactly the kind who love bribes most! IMHO, of course.

...which suggests to me that you're suggesting that bribes are a good example of something besides equipment in which to sink gold. Then someone (I didn't bother to find it) tried to make it into a corner case by saying that only Lawful Evil planes really care about bribes, and you pointed out that everyone is interested bribes, sometimes dressed up as "tribute" or "donations", making reference to Planar Ally. I indicated that Planar Ally, as an example of what bribes are good for, shows that bribery is just mechanical enhancement in drag. You agree that this is a bad thing, but you started out saying that bribes are a good thing.

So where did I lose the thread?

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

You arent as powerful as the other guy no. But presumably you play what you enjoy, be it a guy that blows his money on outer planar hookers or mead from Kords own festhall or on another +3 sword. You can play a fighter/sorcerer/wizard/monk, despite that combo stinking, and take a bunch of garbage feats like stealthy and athletics. You play the style you enjoy. Its an option, even if its "sub optimal".

What I think sucks is demanding everyone cop to that play style, ala Harrison Bergeron.

Well, the bottom line isn't just that you're sub-optimal, it's that being sub-optimal gets you, and perhaps your party, killed. That's the problem with magic item dependency. If you don't toe the line, you die.

 

[gizmo33]

AD&D handled this by transitioning PC's from dungeon crawlers to generals/warlords, popes, and guildmasters, thus providing for a different set of challenges as characters leveled, something other than 'dig treasure out of the ground'.

The AD&D rules did this but IMO not well. IMO the Basic rules (BECMI version) did this better. But I've never seen the real execution of either. One of the glaring problems IMO with doing this in ADnD was a lack of playable mass combat rules. Of course it's debateable whether or not Battle System solved this problem, I suppose for most people it didn't. Consider especially old-school ADnD games, the ones involving mass combat and rulership of any sort (and I can only think of the Throne of Bloodstone series) compared to the dungeon crawls for "name level" characters. There are far more of the latter. And so I think the "PCs above 9th level should build keeps" style of gaming is more of a theory than a practice.

The other problem is that the game is essentially about 4 people doing stuff as a team. If one is the Pope and the other is the Guildmaster of Assassins, you can't really play the game anymore. This has been my experience with this style of play actually, the more the PCs have had individual interests, the harder it is to get the group together to do anything. (If I knew more about Birthright, maybe that would have some bearing on this.)

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Then the problem is the DM.

Not really. Boardrooms and Bureaucrats never really sold many copies. I'd assume most D&D players actually want their character to go on adventures rather than manage hirelings.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

AD&D handled this by transitioning PC's from dungeon crawlers to generals/warlords, popes, and guildmasters, thus providing for a different set of challenges as characters leveled, something other than 'dig treasure out of the ground'.

Tales of Wyre handled this by changing the definition of dungeon. There was a lot of planar politics and such, but also regular battles over who got to control what section of the multiverse, which involved lots of heightened, maximized sonic fireballs.

 

[Rechan]

You arent as powerful as the other guy no. But presumably you play what you enjoy, be it a guy that blows his money on outer planar hookers or mead from Kords own festhall or on another +3 sword. You can play a fighter/sorcerer/wizard/monk, despite that combo stinking, and take a bunch of garbage feats like stealthy and athletics. You play the style you enjoy. Its an option, even if its "sub optimal".

This is faulty for two reasons.

1) The game assumes you're optimized. If you don't x magic item by level y, you are going to get your clock cleaned. I don't think someone should have to sacrifice, well, effectiveness for playing sub-optimally. Reminds me of the party whose only healer was a Cleric2/Pal3 and whose only caster was a Sor2/rogue3 (choices made because it fit their character) and they got their clocks cleaned regularly because the DM threw standard 5th level challenges at them.

2) The system is built so that newbies choose stupid feats and learn from their mistakes. Toughness is not meant to be balanced. Monte Cook basically said when they were designing 3e, the intention was that "The system rewards players who learn how to optimize". That's a horrible design. The system shouldn't be littered with sucky options as newbie traps.

 

[gizmo33]

FWIW, I hate intrigue games. They bore me to tears.

Yea, that's what I was recognizing. At least one of my players IME is not going to want to do the politics thing, and because dungeon crawling IME is something that the other players can at least tolerate, that's what they'll do.

 

[A'koss]

Well, the bottom line isn't just that you're sub-optimal, it's that being sub-optimal gets you, and perhaps your party, killed. That's the problem with magic item dependency. If you don't toe the line, you die.

Exactly. And obviously the higher the level you are, the more this problem is exasperated. High level game balance is dodgy enough at high levels even when you do toe the gold -> magic line...