So what's gold gonna be for?

[Wulf Ratbane]

I'd debate that. I've done a lot of "going into dungeons, killing the bad guys, and taking their stuff", but such activities were means to the end, not the ends of themselves. The "ends" were either the in-game ends of building the castle or saving the Kingdom, or the out-of-game ends of doing something fun with friends on a Sunday afternoon. I've never gotten a thrill from kills orcs per se.

If you were on the Design team, debating it might get you somewhere.

But in practical terms the debate is over and decided.

 

[Thunderfoot]

Oh God, no. Keep training as far away from my core rules as possible, thanks. Maybe--maybe--as a purely optional rule, fully labeled as such, buried somewhere in the DMG.

But as an assumed part of the default core? There aren't enough syllables in the word "No" to fully express the no-ness of it.

I can understand this attitude, I had it at one time...until I realized that in actual game time my current group went from level 1 to level 9 in 1 year, 1 month and 9 days. (Yes I actually keep track of the calendar in game.)

While I think that training should be 'off screen', I think it needs to make a come back. Frankly, auto leveling is a thing of video game gout that should be operated upon immediately and removed.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I think somebody should ask a certain Mr Gygax about the essence of D&D before debate is ended.

We all know that this is the only statement needed about the essence of D&D (cribbed from Olgar Shiverstone's sig):

"The Soul of D&D? It's rolling a natural 20 when you're down to 3 hit points and the cleric's on the floor and you're staring that sunnavabitch bugbear right in his bloodshot eye and holding the line just long enough to let the wizard unleash a fireball at the guards who are on their way, because they're all that stands between you, the Foozle and Glory." - WizarDru

This cannot be provided by WoW, Neverwinter Nights, or farming sims. Q.E.D.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I can understand this attitude, I had it at one time...until I realized that in actual game time my current group went from level 1 to level 9 in 1 year, 1 month and 9 days.

Um...so?

 

[Clavis]

We all know that this is the only statement needed about the essence of D&D (cribbed from Olgar Shiverstone's sig):

"The Soul of D&D? It's rolling a natural 20 when you're down to 3 hit points and the cleric's on the floor and you're staring that sunnavabitch bugbear right in his bloodshot eye and holding the line just long enough to let the wizard unleash a fireball at the guards who are on their way, because they're all that stands between you, the Foozle and Glory." - WizarDru

This cannot be provided by WoW, Neverwinter Nights, or farming sims. Q.E.D.

I can't find a single thing to disagree with in that.

 

[Reynard]

We all know that this is the only statement needed about the essence of D&D (cribbed from Olgar Shiverstone's sig):

"The Soul of D&D? It's rolling a natural 20 when you're down to 3 hit points and the cleric's on the floor and you're staring that sunnavabitch bugbear right in his bloodshot eye and holding the line just long enough to let the wizard unleash a fireball at the guards who are on their way, because they're all that stands between you, the Foozle and Glory." - WizarDru

And the reason is that when you get to that point, you care. It might be for a different reason than I care, but we share the same emotional attachment to the outcome. That makes it fun. And that is totally independent of whether killing things and taking their stuff is the most important aspect of the game to you, or if building a mighty fortress is.

 

[Thunderfoot]

<SNIP>I know I may draw some ire with this but, hack and slash gaming is to immersive role-playing what US Weekly is to the New Yorker. <SNIP>

You win the Internet!!!!!

Bravo, Bravo!!!

 

[Reynard]

High level adventuring DOES impact the setting. You save the world and are the big cheese in Age of Worms and Savage Tides (I havent read shackled city). No fortress sitting required.

It only impacts the setting insofar as you continue to play in the setting afterwards, and the events that occurred have consequences. If the PCs fail, or a not-so-BBEG survives, then the level 1 to 20 dungeon campaign can have an impact. Otherwise, only what the characters build -- artifacts, nations, families, institutions, legends --impact the setting. i think part of the difference is that older versions provided for longer term play to reach the "endgame" of the top levels. With slower levelling and therefore fewer mechanical cookies, players did a lot more building. In addition, I think (and I have no evidence for this other than my own experiences and those others have related to me) playing multiple, subsequent campaigns in the same world was more common.

 

[Thunderfoot]

Um...so?

This is akin to being promoted from Private to Colonel in the same time. You don't progress that fast in anything...it just isn't right and completely blows the 'feel' of the game. It isn't in the remotest sense of the word, believable. I realize this is a fantasy game, but one reason that the LotR was different than the rest of the pulp crap that was out there at the time. There was a sense of realism that held it together.

When it is missing from a game, it does a lot to sour the aspect of Epic and makes it look more Cartoonish.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

You don't progress that fast in anything...it just isn't right and completely blows the 'feel' of the game.

This is the DM's fault for not pausing after the first adventure and stating, "Six months later ..."