So what's gold gonna be for?

[Hairfoot]

So-- redesign D&D to deliver on its core experience as efficiently as possible, or abandon the core of D&D and try to reinvent it?

It's utterly preoposterous to think that WOTC should abandon D&D's core experience to a competitor, declare defeat, and instead retrofit the game to "retain" an insignificant minority of pissy grognards.

Exactly. Just as Hollywood now concentrates on basic, formulaic action films for teenage boys, rather than target an "insignificant minority" of people who appreciate good cinema. Never go for quality when there's volume at stake.

 

[GlassJaw]

Exactly. Just as Hollywood now concentrates on basic, formulaic action films for teenage boys, rather than target an "insignificant minority" of people who appreciate good cinema. Never go for quality when there's volume at stake.

A horrible analogy.

There are plenty of very good action films. Why can't a D&D experience that focus on the core elements be well-designed?

I think what Wulf is saying is that all that peripheral "stuff" you don't really need rules for. People will always adapt the rules to their preferred play style. That's what makes the RPG hobby so great.

However, if the designers don't start at the core essence of the game - killing things and taking their stuff - no one has a game to play because that means there is no balance, no power curve, no incentives, etc.

 

[Hairfoot]

I think what Wulf is saying is that all that peripheral "stuff" you don't really need rules for. People will always adapt the rules to their preferred play style. That's what makes the RPG hobby so great.

However, if the designers don't start at the core essence of the game - killing things and taking their stuff - no one has a game to play because that means there is no balance, no power curve, no incentives, etc.

I'm sure Wulf can speak for himself, but what he seems to be saying is that D&D should be pared down to a system of combat and power-ups, without guidelines for anything outside that MMO dynamic. What you mention - excessive detail of "peripheral "stuff" you don't really need rules for" - is precisely what the "pissy grognards" dislike about 3E.

 

[GlassJaw]

I'm sure Wulf can speak for himself, but what he seems to be saying is that D&D should be pared down to a system of combat and power-ups, without guidelines for anything outside that MMO dynamic. What you mention - excessive detail of "peripheral "stuff" you don't really need rules for" - is precisely what the "pissy grognards" dislike about 3E.

Wow, you are doing a great job of 2 things:

1. Not reading what people actually write: Yes, Wulf can certainly speak for himself but I'm pretty sure he never said D&D should be "pared down".

2. Putting words in people's mouths. Nowhere did I use the word "excessive" when referring to what people bring to their own campaign and play styles.

As far as grognards go, I would say that you can't design to please them anyway so that demographic should be a factor.

 

[hong]

"Sometimes, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Other times, it gets replaced."

 

[Hairfoot]

Not reading what actually write

I can't be sure what that means, so I won't address it.

Putting words in people's mouths. Nowhere did I use the word "excessive" when referring to what people bring to their own campaign and play styles.

What you mentioned was:

peripheral "stuff" you don't really need rules for. People will always adapt the rules to their preferred play style.

The usual "grognard" position is that there needn't be a rule for everything, so I agree with you. But Wulf's post suggests that the D&D can be summed up as "killing things, taking their stuff, powering up, repeat".

To me, that describes a shallow game, and an RPG model which would leave the potential market wondering why they should go to the trouble of PnP, when the MMO does all that already.

The issue at stake is that, while combat and looting has always been at the heart of D&D action, the reason it has a greater scope than computer games is because it allows a campaign to become so much more.

 

[hong]

To me, that describes a shallow game, and an RPG model which would leave the potential market wondering why they should go to the trouble of PnP, when the MMO does all that already.

Because nothing beats trash-talking someone face to face. Duh.

 

[Hairfoot]

Because nothing beats trash-talking someone face to face. Duh.

And it's sort of redundant when the other players are named "1337poOpiSS" and "haXorbumcleftpwner88".

 

[hong]

And it's sort of redundant when the other players are named "1337poOpiSS" and "haXorbumcleftpwner88".

Exactly.

 

[pemerton]

I think it is going to be far more about combat

4e will probably have the best-developed rules of any version of D&D for the design and the resolution of combat challenges. But if the rumours are true, it will also, probably, have the most sophisticated set of rules both for both the design of, and the resolution of, social and environmental challenges.

So I don't think it fair to say that it will be far more about combat. It will be more about rules - rules for character building, rules for challenge design, rules for action resolution - and therefore will be even less like 1st ed AD&D, but that is a different matter. AD&D's absence of rules is extremely unusual for an RPG (compare it to any of its contemporaries - even T&T has more sophisiticated rules both for character build and action resolution), so it's not that surprising that D&D has become more typical as it has gone through iterations.

[it is going to be] far more about instant gratification

If you mean "instant gratification of the PCs within the gameworld" then, again, there is no reason to believe that to be true. PCs in 4e will suffer from time to time, just as PCs in every other RPG suffer.

If, on the other hand, you mean "instant gratification of the players at the gaming table", then I hope so! When I sit down to play any other game, I get the instant gratification of the pleasure that particular gaming experience delivers. Why should D&D, which is (after all) a game, competing for my time with other possible games, not also be fun to play?

Now, if your point is really that you don't enjoy playing a game where much of the play experience is interacting with, and mediated via, the rules, then that is a different thing. For such a person, 4e will not be gratifying, whether instantly or otherwise.