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So what's wrong with Palladium?

Kobold Boots

Banned
Banned
As an aside here. . .say what?

I've been gaming regularly since the '90's. I've played with numerous different gaming groups, in multiple states, across a variety of campaign styles from deep-immersion roleplay to "beer & pretzels". Never once have I seen a GM collect character sheets to audit them, especially as routinely as once per level. Every single tabletop campaign I've ever played in has run essentially on an honor system. In rare cases the GM may keep character sheets to make sure they aren't lost, but they aren't going around doing audits of the sheets between sessions.

The only place I've seen anything even remotely like that was at some large nationwide larps where players pay to play, and character sheets are handled centrally to prevent cheating, but that's in a game that is run as a business and has a lot of PvP.

Noted: a few things make my default approach make sense in the context of this thread.

1. Palladium is broken enough to have multiple players making characters by the same rules fairly with each player interpreting the same rules different ways. When you're running a game that suffers from this flaw, you need to provide a consistent interpretation of the rules and an audit of sheets is necessary.

2. While it's not the case now, I've played with powergamers for most of my gaming career. Not surprisingly, powergamers like Palladium (and HERO) and for those types of players you need to double-check things frequently. If not to nerf to at least stay a few steps ahead of them so challenges can be adjusted (lessened or increased).

3. I've done a fair amount of larping and staff work on larps. If I see a system that works on a large scale and prevents arguments, I usually adapt it to my small scale games.
 

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RainOfSteel

Explorer
A few years later we see Hero System via Champions and GURPS and the raising of temples to the cult of balance.
Pursuit of game balance is not a cult undertaking. Assigning the word cult to game balance places it in a derogatory category.

Game balance is a critical aspect of game design for many, many reasons.

One aspect of game balance is between character classes, or within whatever character construction system is being used. If player A builds a super-duper do-everything out-shines all others all the time character (several Rifts classes nearly qualify), and player B who is new to gaming and only lukewarm to what to do in a game campaign picks Vagabond, he's going to enter the game and discover he has virtually nothing at his disposal when player A is cleaning house and saving the day with every encounter. Even players C, D, and E, who only made so-so OCC/RCC choices and builds will find themselves standing in the shadows. This sort of thing causes game groups to implode. It is one of many reasons for desiring game balance.


However, it is very true that Kevin took Rifts even further afield than previous RPGs with PC classes and PC races with entirely divergent power levels.
I never actually saw anyone pick a Vagabond OCC myself, or even a Rogue Scholar, for that matter. Hatchling Dragons, Cyber-Knights, Full Conversion Borgs (there is little reason to do Partial), and Mind-Melters were all extremely popular, along with other OCC/RCCs from later books. I saw a couple of City Rat picks, but they didn't last long. It isn't that those characters died, but that the players realized they had been hosed by their OCC choices in comparison to the other classes, and so they switched to new characters.

I had some arguments with fellow Rifts enthusiasts about potentially correcting the situation by adding a Contacts system to the game, where the highest-powered OCC/RCCs got none or almost none, and the low-powered OCC/RCCs would get a slew of them.

We decided it would not necessarily be well received by all players as Contacts are external NPCs beyond the control of individual characters, and GMs never run interactions with contacts the same way, whereas the high-powered characters derived all of their powers inherently.


The mistake Kevin made was not providing enough GM guidance in the core book. The Game Master Guide covers some things, but certainly more GM help is needed in the core book.
The GMG does cover "some things", but does not cover how to handle super-star characters in the same party as Ed the Vagabond (or similar). Aside from extremely artificial setups, it really doesn't work.


[...] because the GM must tailor the game to a variety of power levels and be able to shine a spotlight on each player.
A GM can shine a spotlight on any character, but if the Vagabond player's perception of the situation is that his or her character isn't doing anything comparable to the other player's characters, that spotlight will seem like a repeat highlighter for how insignificant, or carried, the Vagabond really is.


That's rather easy to do with Traveller. Even in the original Book 1, you could easily roll up a character with 1 term who got Gambling-1 and a revolver and another character who has Pilot-4, combat armor, a laser rifle and starship.
Possible, but neither easy nor likely. Getting four hits on the same skill in one term was quite a remote chance.


Even easier for imbalance was Gamma World where you could easily roll up weak powers and crippling deficiencies plus poor stats.
The early Gamma World was meant to have some zany comedy in it. If you're all in it for a laugh, then it doesn't matter.

For more serious games, I never saw anyone using verbatim mutation rolls. The GM always fudged it to keep out character crippling rolls.
 

I never actually saw anyone pick a Vagabond OCC myself, or even a Rogue Scholar, for that matter. Hatchling Dragons, Cyber-Knights, Full Conversion Borgs (there is little reason to do Partial), and Mind-Melters were all extremely popular, along with other OCC/RCCs from later books. I saw a couple of City Rat picks, but they didn't last long. It isn't that those characters died, but that the players realized they had been hosed by their OCC choices in comparison to the other classes, and so they switched to new characters.

One of the quick Rifts games I ran, I had 3 people who had played before (one of them way more then me) and 3 who had not played rifts (one had only played 1 or 2 rpgs before) and we got a Cosmo Knight and a Cyber Knight in the same party as Vagabond. I warned the vagabond player, but he said he would try and swap out for his juicer idea if this didn;t pan out. THEN the suprise was that the Cyber Knight was the one with the issue.
 

Spinachcat

First Post
1. Palladium is broken enough to have multiple players making characters by the same rules fairly with each player interpreting the same rules different ways. When you're running a game that suffers from this flaw, you need to provide a consistent interpretation of the rules and an audit of sheets is necessary.

Even in the age of computerized character builders, I am shocked at how many 3e & 4e PC sheets are full of mistakes. Same with White Wolf and of course Hero. I won't ascribe "cheating" to most of them, but just honest mistakes and confusion about rules. That's why I audit PCs for most every campaign.

As soon as things get more complicated than OD&D or Traveller, having the GM as part of chargen can be important.


3. I've done a fair amount of larping and staff work on larps. If I see a system that works on a large scale and prevents arguments, I usually adapt it to my small scale games.

Always a good plan. I definitely find that running LARPS has benefited my GMing on the tabletop.



Pursuit of game balance is not a cult undertaking. Assigning the word cult to game balance places it in a derogatory category.

Cult is the exact word for RPG fetish for balance. RPGs have been poisoned with a belief that if we only had the perfect rules, then we'd achieve tabletop utopia where everyone would be equally wonderful snowflakes.

3e said "Control the DM", 4e said "The Math will save us", Hero said "Thicker books!", and now only Monte Cook's 5e can save us! 5e shall bring us the Nirvana of Balance...or maybe 6e! Surely Pathfinder 2e will be utter perfection!

Even more laughable is the cult's desire to make games where noobs and veterans are instantly on equal footing. Even Chutes & Ladders fails to meet the cult's demands. Outside of Candyland, even games for small children reward repeated play and game expertise.

But as much as the cult is praised over and over and each "even more balanced" RPG is worshiped, the end is always the same. The super-balanced game turns out to be easily breakable or decried as "flavorless".


Aside from extremely artificial setups, it really doesn't work.

I never had this issue.

I always have pre-campaign discussions with my players about my thoughts for the power level and get their thoughts as well. Then everyone chooses OCC/RCCs accordingly. If somebody wants to play a "lower power" PC that our agreed upon power level, that's their choice.

If your game is 99% combat, then of course the combat powerhouses are going to dominant. But if your game is 50% combat and 50% interaction, then its not a issue.

The Glitterboy, the Mind Melter, the Weird Uber-Alien and the Full-Conversion Borg can't walk into a Coalition City. Heck, outside of Tolkeen or Atlantis, most SDC squishy communities aren't going to be very welcoming to these mega-killers. The Vagabond and the Rogue Scholar however can fully and easily interact with fellow squishies.

I run heavy combat Rifts and Chaos Earth games (at least 50% of my games are about fighting) and "suboptimal PCs" would be perfectly fine choices because at the end of the day, its a human (-ish) world.


A GM can shine a spotlight on any character, but if the Vagabond player's perception of the situation is that his or her character isn't doing anything comparable to the other player's characters, that spotlight will seem like a repeat highlighter for how insignificant, or carried, the Vagabond really is.

Regardless of the game, the player should enjoy their character. If a player only appreciates when their character is an uber combat monster, then they need to pick combat monsters.

I've run plenty games of the Stormbringer RPG where your character can randomly be a diseased beggar or impoverished peasant and Warhammer 1e where you can wind up a lowly herbalist or artist's apprentice. Our game clubs always "let the dice fall" on the Gamma World mutation charts....and sometimes the results were sad and pathetic. However, FAR more often than not, the players have had a great time with these "failure" PCs.

For many players, there is great fun seeing if their lowly PC can make a difference. For some players, "lame" characters are a roleplaying challenge, like playing a level 1 Magic User or Monk in AD&D...or anybody in Call of Cthulhu.

Also, "success" for a Vagabond is different than "success" for a Cosmo Knight and some players value the "little successes" of their weaker PCs.

I am NOT saying that Palladium games are for everyone. No way, no how. But for many of us, the randomness and the funkiness and the imbalance are features and not bugs.

And one of us who thinks the Rifts setting is impressive is Jerry Bruckheimer, the producer of Pirates of the Caribbean, who has spend several hundred thousand dollars (perhaps $1M+) on ongoing development of the Rifts movie. Of course, Bruckheimer regularly spend millions for development of movies that may or may not ever be seen.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
The Glitterboy, the Mind Melter, the Weird Uber-Alien and the Full-Conversion Borg can't walk into a Coalition City. Heck, outside of Tolkeen or Atlantis, most SDC squishy communities aren't going to be very welcoming to these mega-killers. The Vagabond and the Rogue Scholar however can fully and easily interact with fellow squishies.

Well, the Glitterboy can't...but the pilot sure can!

And...

Re: guys in the skull stuff are evil

Don't forget, raids, casualties and defectors means there's a sizable amount of Coalition stuff no longer in Coalition hands.
 

prosfilaes

Adventurer
Cult is the exact word for RPG fetish for balance.

A pejorative term for small new religions is the exact word here?

Even more laughable is the cult's desire to make games where noobs and veterans are instantly on equal footing. Even Chutes & Ladders fails to meet the cult's demands. Outside of Candyland, even games for small children reward repeated play and game expertise.
Factual error: Chutes & Ladders has no skill component.

There's limited space in the world for games that require extensive repeated play and game expertise. Every day, people don't pick up Magic or Chess because they're not in a mood to sit down and get crushed. That's part of the draw of Magic or Chess, but is unsustainable for a smaller game.

I've played Power Grid less than a dozen times; if I hadn't won at least one of those games, I wouldn't own the game (and an expansion) now. I've played Small World once, came in second. I'm much more likely to play the game again, possibly buy the game, then if I had got stomped. We play a lot of games at the board game meetups we go to; if the tendency of the modern board game was to require a number of plays before one could be competent in it, we'd be playing a lot fewer games a lot more times--and I bet many of us wouldn't be playing at all.

Regardless of the game, the player should enjoy their character. If a player only appreciates when their character is an uber combat monster, then they need to pick combat monsters.
I've got a wizard in my current game; she has awesome Knowledge skills and deals out impressive dawizard in battle. The Knowledge skills may as well be attached to a party pool; they trigger the reading of boxed text to the whole party. Sure, if I were playing with a great DM, maybe Rifts would be okay, but I'm not. And when I'm looking for games, I find it easier to look for a good game with a good DM then a weak game with a great DM; the game is easier to check and great DMs are rare.

I also see no reason to start playing an RPG that's designed to punish me because I don't know the game that well. Trying to make games such that the entry barrier to new players is high discourages players from switching games.

I am NOT saying that Palladium games are for everyone. No way, no how. But for many of us, the randomness and the funkiness and the imbalance are features and not bugs.
Of course; the other people are cultists, but no matter how many sacrifices you make to Kevin Siembieda, you aren't cultists.

And one of us who thinks the Rifts setting is impressive is Jerry Bruckheimer, the producer of Pirates of the Caribbean,
No one in their reasonable mind thought that the Pirates of the Caribbean, a three-minute ride, had an impressive setting, and I see no reason to think Bruckheimer did. He thought it had a name he could use and some features he could build on. I don't see that Rifts is any different.
 
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Saeviomagy

Adventurer
Just a little point here: The cult of balance actually includes the palladium games. Why else would different characters require different XP to level? There were attempts made at balance there, it's just that they were completely laughable.
 

Dausuul

Legend
Cult is the exact word for RPG fetish for balance. RPGs have been poisoned with a belief that if we only had the perfect rules, then we'd achieve tabletop utopia where everyone would be equally wonderful snowflakes.

3e said "Control the DM", 4e said "The Math will save us", Hero said "Thicker books!", and now only Monte Cook's 5e can save us! 5e shall bring us the Nirvana of Balance...or maybe 6e! Surely Pathfinder 2e will be utter perfection!

Even more laughable is the cult's desire to make games where noobs and veterans are instantly on equal footing. Even Chutes & Ladders fails to meet the cult's demands. Outside of Candyland, even games for small children reward repeated play and game expertise.

But as much as the cult is praised over and over and each "even more balanced" RPG is worshiped, the end is always the same. The super-balanced game turns out to be easily breakable or decried as "flavorless".

Bollocks.

The desire for game balance has existed throughout RPG history, and indeed well before RPGs were invented. It is not and has not been a "cult." The belief that better rules make for better games is pretty widespread; in fact it's a tautology, since the point of rules is to make a fun game, so improving the rules improves the game by definition. For a lot of us, a well-balanced game is more fun than a poorly balanced one, all else being equal. That doesn't mean balance is the only thing we care about, just that it's a thing we care about.

If your idea of a cult pursuing endlessly better balanced games were true, then people right now should be saying "4E needs to be better balanced! More balance in 5E!" I have not heard a single person say this. The general consensus seems to be that 4E is as well balanced as any RPG needs to be; its deficiencies lie elsewhere. So the goal for 5E is to improve on those deficiencies while keeping the balance.

Having different priorities from you does not make people cultists.
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
No one in their reasonable mind thought that the Pirates of the Caribbean, a three-minute ride, had an impressive setting, and I see no reason to think Bruckheimer did. He thought it had a name he could use and some features he could build on. I don't see that Rifts is any different.

Good point- the end product (if there ever is one) may resemble the game known as RIFTS as much as Kevin Costner's The Postman resembles the David Brin novel it was (looooooooooosely) based on. Or how The Terminator resembles the Phillip K. Dick story that inspired it. Or how my shoe resembles a guacamole bacon-burger.

Such is Hollywood.
 
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