So what's wrong with Palladium?

[Spinachcat]

That's ahistorical, I think. I have a hard time naming another game that has characters as clearly unbalanced as Rifts.

The Palladium system was born with the Mechanoids RPG in 1982. The games of that time included Arduin, T&T, Stormbringer, RuneQuest, Call of Cthulhu and other "random roll" RPGs where characters could be rather out of power balance with each other.

A few years later we see Hero System via Champions and GURPS and the raising of temples to the cult of balance. However, it is very true that Kevin took Rifts even further afield than previous RPGs with PC classes and PC races with entirely divergent power levels.

The mistake Kevin made was not providing enough GM guidance in the core book. The Game Master Guide covers some things, but certainly more GM help is needed in the core book.

It takes a strong GM to run Rifts. It's much more challenging than balanced RPGs because the GM must tailor the game to a variety of power levels and be able to shine a spotlight on each player.

None of them have vagabonds in the same party with cybernetically enhanced superwarriors.

That's rather easy to do with Traveller. Even in the original Book 1, you could easily roll up a character with 1 term who got Gambling-1 and a revolver and another character who has Pilot-4, combat armor, a laser rifle and starship.

Even easier for imbalance was Gamma World where you could easily roll up weak powers and crippling deficiencies plus poor stats.

In short, his cut and paste is literally cut and paste...

That ended about a decade ago. They have been fully computerized with their process for some time now. However, the by-hand layout probably should have ended two decades ago.

And they should enhance their PDFs.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

That ended about a decade ago. They have been fully computerized with their process for some time now. However, the by-hand layout probably should have ended two decades ago.

And they should enhance their PDFs.

Could well be. I haven't looked at Palladium material in about that time. The last time that I canremember looking was about when 3e hit the shelves.

We used to have some Rifts players in the area that were kind of clannish, they would come in, to the FLGS, buy some Rifts stuff, maybe some dice or minis, and leave. They did not proselytize, did not buy other materials,and did not try to argue with other gamers. They must have been up to something....

The Auld Grump

 

[Kobold Boots]

They also revised RIFTS.

But have you looked at 'em? The revisions are so minuscule as to be almost nonexistent & meaningless. I recall looking at one revised book and noticed a glaring typo that hadn't been changed, so I just left the revised material sitting on gamestore shelves.

In most cases I'd be being snarky by saying something like this but in the case of Palladium it's true about 80%-90% of the time in my experience.

When something in a Palladium line other than Robotech says revised, it means they changed the cover art and the revision number is more in line with the definition of a print run.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

A few years later we see Hero System via Champions and GURPS and the raising of temples to the cult of balance.

1) Champions first hit the shelves in 1981...IOW, before Palladium released the Mechanoids RPG.

2) The claim that because HERO & GURPS use character build point systems means they're balanced is simply not true. In HERO, a properly built 250pt blaster can wax the floor with a 500pt skill monkey PC. Hell- ask any veteran Champions player: 75 point agents with the right gear and tactics can be damn hazardous.

 

[Janx]

People still play Paladium stuff?

I never really liked it the few times I played in college.

 

[Dausuul]

The idea that character balance is important goes back to the start of RPGs. Gygax wrote about the importance of game balance in the 1E rulebooks. Granted, the balance of 1E wasn't exactly flawless, but compared to RIFTS it's like 4E had babies with a ballet dancer.

 

[Stormonu]

Granted, my experience with Palladium has been playing Robotech and TMNT, and only having read Rifts.

For a game like Robotech, with its mecha and Zentraidi, MDC makes a whole lot of sense to represent the resilience and deadliness of those weapons. However, in Rifts, where even small arms generally deal MDC damage, it's just a tad ridiculous.

Likewise, the best I can remember, Rifts uses the sames basic rules chassis as the other Palladium games I've played, and it stinks. Granted, when I first encountered it, it was the first game I ran across that actually had skill lists and I thought that was great, but in retrospect, the whole system is pretty much a mess. And I'd never try any sort of combat nearing squad-sized actions with the way combat is played out (mostly due to the numerous attack-dodge rolls each combatant would have).

However, I love the world setting. It's a fabulous kitchen sink sci-fi setting that just somehow works for me. If I could ditch the rule system for say d20 or Savage Worlds, I'd love to play in the Rifts world. But not with the current mechanics, and converting is just too much work.

<edit> The person who dissed you for playing Rifts was way out of line. I may not be fond of the system, but no one is a bad person if they decide that's what they like for their group. The system just isn't to my tastes.

 

[prosfilaes]

2) The claim that because HERO & GURPS use character build point systems means they're balanced is simply not true. In HERO, a properly built 250pt blaster can wax the floor with a 500pt skill monkey PC. Hell- ask any veteran Champions player: 75 point agents with the right gear and tactics can be damn hazardous.

Combat efficacy is not the only measurement of balanced, and particularly in a game like HERO the system has to permit the character who can do (literally) anything but fight. But in any case, HERO and GURPS seem to be among the first games to remove the random factor in character building and have the apparent intent of all characters being balanced.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Combat efficacy is not the only measurement of balanced, and particularly in a game like HERO the system has to permit the character who can do (literally) anything but fight. But in any case, HERO and GURPS seem to be among the first games to remove the random factor in character building and have the apparent intent of all characters being balanced.

While I actually agree with that, its the most common meaning applied in discussions of balance, especially when people talk about RIFTS: when people call it unbalanced, they're usually talking about parties where you have high MDC attack/def PCs like Glitterboys & Cyborgs mixed with things like Rogue Scientists and Rogue Scholars.

Sure, the Scientist & Scholar have all kinds of nifty things they can do out of combat, but when the megadamage "fit" hits the megadamage "shan" they're virtually useless.

...which is virtually the first thing people bring up when calling RIFTS "unbalanced".

Beyond that, if you look in the HERO books themselves, you will note that some of the powers have special symbols by them as a warning to the GM, basically calling attention to the fact that the powers so marked are intrinsically unbalancing. Like Time Travel. Even in small amounts, that power can create nightmares. A dedicated low power Time Traveller- especially one designed by a true master of the system- can give a team fits.

Which is another thing: games like GURPS and HERO reward system mastery much more than games with more randomized structures. Even in 6th Ed, a HERO savant can get so much more out of a single build point that he could create a radically more powerful PC than a novice.

 

[Hussar]

Back in the day, I did like TMNT. It was gonzo, it was wahoo and it was fun. But, wow, was it easy to break.