So when D&D isn't for me, what is?


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From what I heard non cobat skills were not really a priority in that edition.

I guess it depends on how you approach it.

As far as I'm concerned (as a Ref), you can have as many non-combat skills as are appropriate to your character. We're just not going to quantify them.

Room for non-combat skills is not what it lacks. Rather, it eschews quantification.
 


I second the nominations of Epic RPG and Fantasy HERO from what I've seen of Derren's tastes on this message board, especially Epic RPG.

I'd suggest he avoid The Burning Wheel and The Riddle of Steel like the plague. Although they may fit much of his criteria, from what I remember Derren ascribes to the notion that game crunch should be strictly related to a character's capabilities and both games are heavily dependent on mechanics that operate on a meta level. I lurve this games. Any game that I lurve Derren is probably likely to hate.

Derren, if you decide on Fantasy Hero I'd seriously consider not using it's Disadvantage subsystem. That's really the only part of HERO that is inconsistent with simulationistic principles.

For a D&D esque take on HERO, Fitz's High Fantasy Hero page is an excellent starting point.
 

my 2¢ is try GURPS

has advantages/disadvantages for characters and can pretty much be whatever setting/world you want as far as realistic goes

you can download GURPS lite for free (it's an intro with the basic GURPS rules) from www.sjgames.com

good luck finding a game you like, there are plenty out there to try
 

From what you've mentioned you like, I think you might really like both GURPS and HERO (using Fantasy HERO). Both systems are modular, and you can "dial" down (or up) the grittiness, realism, lethality, and magic.

GURPS has a standard magic system which is very different from D&D. I love it, and will always love it, but it is very different. They have a newer book out (GURPS Thaumatology) which gives you tons of rules ideas for different systems of magic. If you want MORE of a D&D flavor with GURPS, check out GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, which is a series of inexpensive PDFs which expand the GURPS rules to simulate 'old school' D&D. GURPS Martial Arts provides a TON of cool options for realistic martial combat (like reversed grips, defensive grips, training in techniques). Do note, however, that GURPS provides very little support akin to "adventures" or Monster Manuals.

HERO is a very flexible points based system. It is a little more 'cinematic' than GURPS, at a default, and does not handle skills, advantages, disadvantages, and combat in nearly the incredible detail that GURPS does. However, it is much easier to be "cool" in HERO without costing 800 points, like in GURPS. Fantasy HERO is their basic supplement for running fantasy games. Note that this is a toolkit, and not a setting. It gives you quite a few different fantasy setting ideas, but does not flesh out any of them. There are Fantasy HERO Grimoires (full of magic spells), Fantasy HERO Bestiary (a Monster Manual) and other supplements full of pregenerated characters.

Both GURPS and HERO are toolkit systems. They do not seek to create any particular "feel" in their games. That is left up to the DM. This means that you are both considerably liberated, and considerably burdened. The game can be (almost) whatever you want it to be, but you also have to do a lot more of the work. Co-running a fantasy campaign in GURPS took up quite a bit of my time, and due to the detail of the system, we typically had about 2 RP 'encounters' and one or two combat 'encounters' in a six hour session. Combat can take a long time, particularly in GURPS, though it is also possible to outmatch (or be outmatched) in a fight and have it end very, very fast.

One of my favorite parts of the system for GURPS: character points. Heroic Characters are usually built on 150-250 points (plus probably another 50-100 in disadvantages). This means that you can give meaningful 1cp awards to players without screwing up the game. I gave out 1 cp per session just for bringing snacks!

GURPS lite is a great suggestion. It's free, so you can try it out at no cost, and, if you like the game, it is really all that your players will need to consult.
 

Derren, if you decide on Fantasy Hero I'd seriously consider not using it's Disadvantage subsystem. That's really the only part of HERO that is inconsistent with simulationistic principles.

For a D&D esque take on HERO, Fitz's High Fantasy Hero page is an excellent starting point.

If Disadvantages are a deal-breaker, consider waiting for HERO System 6th Edition this summer, since it sounds like they may be changed in ways that will make it easier to disconnect them entirely from the system.
 


I'm going to resist listing how few of the listed criteria discount 4e. It's clearly not a choice for more than just the listed reasons, and I'll accept that. So...

D&D 2nd Edition. You'll still have to pick and choose the books that work for you, as not everything likely will.

Otherwise? Maybe GURPS. I've got no real experience with the generic systems, so I'm not sure where they succeed or fail.
 

Derren, if you decide on Fantasy Hero I'd seriously consider not using it's Disadvantage subsystem. That's really the only part of HERO that is inconsistent with simulationistic principles.
I've never heard of issues with the disadvantages system (aside from powergamers trying to create advantageous disadvantages). Can you elaborate?
For a D&D esque take on HERO, Fitz's High Fantasy Hero page is an excellent starting point.
A cursory glance at that page shows an excellent resource for someone highly familiar with HERO. I would not, however, recommend it to someone who has not experienced HERO on their own first. Adding a new characteristic is a big red flag saying don't show this to folks new to HERO.

DeadlyUematsu said:
If you go with Fantasy HERO, you should allow check out KillerShrike's site here as well.
This site has lots of examples of spells that could be useful. It also has some conversion resources you might find useful.

Still, you should approach whatever new system you find as itself before trying to turn it into D&D. In my travels, I've found you can play D&D with just about any RPG. But it is much easier if you first know how to play that ruleset in the manner it's intended before you attempt to morph it into something else.
 

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