Protagonist
Explorer
I think 3.x is pretty much unique in allowing monsters as characters right out of the box so this will be tough to find elsewhere. I suggest houseruling your own streamlined 3.x
So when D&D isn't for me, what is?
- Thread starter Derren
- Start date
According to my location entry that would not be a problem.
I have played DSA 2E and remember it as rather low magic and having 3 die roll for a skill check. But I will look at its 3rd version. Should be more easy to find players/games for that (just have to find those who don't play in Aventurien. Don't like that world)
From what I heard non cobat skills were not really a priority in that edition.
Remathilis
Legend
Seriously? Second Edition AD&D.
1. Primarily fantasy. Fantasy gaming should be the primary focus of the system. Having non fantasy setting books are ok, but not required
2e has some traditional fantasy worlds (Realm, Hawk, Lance) as well as pseudo-fantasy (Sun, Loft, Scape) and some alt-fantasy (Quadim) and historicals (green books). There's even a supplement to play 1890s Victorian Horror!
2. High/Low magic. Magic should be powerful both globally or in encounters/smaller scale. Yet magic should also be uncommon so that most commoners are likely never affected by it. Not like, say Eberron where magic is everywhere
You could run the gamut of Realms-level high magic to non-magical Medieval France.
3. Not too complex. A action should not require more than two die rolls to complete
Getting over a few wonky subsystems, most 2e actions are 2-3 dice rolls tops.
4. Not gritty, but it should also be possible to play more normal stories than "Heroe saves the world" things
Core 2e is VERY High-fantasy themed. Grittiness comes from its settings, season to taste.
5. (related to 4). Combat should not be so deadly that the players are afraid to enter combat. But it should still be dangerous, so no "the players will always win without losses" assumptions
Yup. Low-mid level 2e.
6. The game should not fall apart when you play it in a simulationist way and question things with were only included for coolness despite making no sense. At best, it should be easy to houserule them out.
Still a good fit.
7. (related to 6) The game shouldn't sacrifice too much believability for streamlining or, especially, coolness
Done. There is nothing streamlined, or cool, about 2e.
8. No buster swords, chainmail bikinis and other such nonsense
::looks at 2e PHB:: Nope.
9. Combat should be more "down to earth" and not include many wuxia elements.
Does "I make 2 attacks with my longsword" count as Wuxia?
10. While combat should be covered rather well rules wise, doing something else than that should not require you to freeform. It doesn't need rules for everything, but at least should have such a framework which allows you to easily craft new "skills" (or whatever the system uses) to run a adventure with an uncommon focus
Welcome to Non-weapon proficiencies. You can define what a PC knows/doesn't know, but actual actions (and such) are open to DM fiat if wanted. If not, straight die roll.
11. Believable characters with strengths and weaknesses.
That's a Player's job, but 2e PCs have strengths AND weaknesses.
12. (related to 11) NPCs using the same system as PCs
Yup.
13. (related to 12) It should be possible to play monsters, either out of the book or after small tweaking
Complete Book of Humanoids
14. Either classless or more open classes with good multiclass rules.
Good multi-class rules would require loosing up the current restrictions, but classless (or pesudo-classless) can be done using Player's Options.
Hows that? Get your 2e books out and roll some dice. I call the ranger!
1. Primarily fantasy. Fantasy gaming should be the primary focus of the system. Having non fantasy setting books are ok, but not required
2e has some traditional fantasy worlds (Realm, Hawk, Lance) as well as pseudo-fantasy (Sun, Loft, Scape) and some alt-fantasy (Quadim) and historicals (green books). There's even a supplement to play 1890s Victorian Horror!
2. High/Low magic. Magic should be powerful both globally or in encounters/smaller scale. Yet magic should also be uncommon so that most commoners are likely never affected by it. Not like, say Eberron where magic is everywhere
You could run the gamut of Realms-level high magic to non-magical Medieval France.
3. Not too complex. A action should not require more than two die rolls to complete
Getting over a few wonky subsystems, most 2e actions are 2-3 dice rolls tops.
4. Not gritty, but it should also be possible to play more normal stories than "Heroe saves the world" things
Core 2e is VERY High-fantasy themed. Grittiness comes from its settings, season to taste.
5. (related to 4). Combat should not be so deadly that the players are afraid to enter combat. But it should still be dangerous, so no "the players will always win without losses" assumptions
Yup. Low-mid level 2e.
6. The game should not fall apart when you play it in a simulationist way and question things with were only included for coolness despite making no sense. At best, it should be easy to houserule them out.
Still a good fit.
7. (related to 6) The game shouldn't sacrifice too much believability for streamlining or, especially, coolness
Done. There is nothing streamlined, or cool, about 2e.
8. No buster swords, chainmail bikinis and other such nonsense
::looks at 2e PHB:: Nope.
9. Combat should be more "down to earth" and not include many wuxia elements.
Does "I make 2 attacks with my longsword" count as Wuxia?
10. While combat should be covered rather well rules wise, doing something else than that should not require you to freeform. It doesn't need rules for everything, but at least should have such a framework which allows you to easily craft new "skills" (or whatever the system uses) to run a adventure with an uncommon focus
Welcome to Non-weapon proficiencies. You can define what a PC knows/doesn't know, but actual actions (and such) are open to DM fiat if wanted. If not, straight die roll.
11. Believable characters with strengths and weaknesses.
That's a Player's job, but 2e PCs have strengths AND weaknesses.
12. (related to 11) NPCs using the same system as PCs
Yup.
13. (related to 12) It should be possible to play monsters, either out of the book or after small tweaking
Complete Book of Humanoids
14. Either classless or more open classes with good multiclass rules.
Good multi-class rules would require loosing up the current restrictions, but classless (or pesudo-classless) can be done using Player's Options.
Hows that? Get your 2e books out and roll some dice. I call the ranger!
jmucchiello
Hero
If GURPS is close, Fantasy HERO is probably closer since you don't want gritty combat. GURPS combat is notoriously more gritty than HERO's.
But if 3E was good enough, how can D&D not be right for you? Around here a common phrase is "there's no wrong way to play D&D" so how did you manage to play it wrongly?
Keefe the Thief
Hero
Ahhh, TDE, the prime simulationist RPG. However, no monster play in 3e.
So, if you´re interested in TDE, Derren, and want to give it a try, buy the basic book. Contains simplified chargen and everything you need to get into the game. It it is TDE 4e, of course, but i wouldnt send anyone back to 3e. 
Get it here.
Henry
Autoexreginated
One more suggestion for Warhammer FRP 2nd edition. Reasons are as follows:
1. Fantasy is the focus, though not 100% swords & sorcery - there's a bit of late middle ages-style guns and cannons mixed in, but so little that if you omitted it, it wouldn't make a whit of difference.
2. Magic ain't just non-peasant, it's outright dangerous if you rely on it in every combat. There's about a 1 in 10,000 chance that casting a simple light spell could have a wizard dragged off by a demon from Hell because he didn't do it quite right...
3. I can't think of an action that requires three die rolls to complete. There might be one, but not off the top of my head... It's a d10 only system.
4. It's a bit gritty, but you can get pretty heroic with it. Most of the time, your heroes are saving a person, or saving the village, or stopping some local catastrophe. The really tough stuff (giants, dragons) could easily get them killed.
5. fighting things like orcs and goblins can be dangerous, but PCs will usually triumph handily. There ARE NO MOOKS, however. One goblin per PC is challenging; two goblins per PC can end up in one or two dead PCs. There are fate points that can get prevent a character from dying, but rarely do characters get more than three to five in a whole campaign.
6. It's not 100% simulationist, but I'd argue any game that is is no fun to play more than once. It's gritty enough that it contains rules for poxes, diseases, and gilded noses, if that's your thing, but makes them simple enough to keep PCs playable.
7. I would think #7 would compete with #3, wouldn't it? In any event, it's an easy to learn system, but still detailed enough for PCs to be distinct.
8 & 9: No danger of EITHER one of those.
10: The stat blocks and combat system are simple enough to allow these.
11: Noooo problem.
12: while Monsters do use the same system, you can't play a monster - only a dwarf, elf, halfling, or human. It fails this test.
14: classless, though careers are like templates for advancement. you have to pick careers (and you change them over time) but it's not like a class or levelling - the template defines how far you can advance in a given related set of skills, 1 point or 5% at a time.
1. Fantasy is the focus, though not 100% swords & sorcery - there's a bit of late middle ages-style guns and cannons mixed in, but so little that if you omitted it, it wouldn't make a whit of difference.
2. Magic ain't just non-peasant, it's outright dangerous if you rely on it in every combat. There's about a 1 in 10,000 chance that casting a simple light spell could have a wizard dragged off by a demon from Hell because he didn't do it quite right...
3. I can't think of an action that requires three die rolls to complete. There might be one, but not off the top of my head... It's a d10 only system.
4. It's a bit gritty, but you can get pretty heroic with it. Most of the time, your heroes are saving a person, or saving the village, or stopping some local catastrophe. The really tough stuff (giants, dragons) could easily get them killed.
5. fighting things like orcs and goblins can be dangerous, but PCs will usually triumph handily. There ARE NO MOOKS, however. One goblin per PC is challenging; two goblins per PC can end up in one or two dead PCs. There are fate points that can get prevent a character from dying, but rarely do characters get more than three to five in a whole campaign.
6. It's not 100% simulationist, but I'd argue any game that is is no fun to play more than once. It's gritty enough that it contains rules for poxes, diseases, and gilded noses, if that's your thing, but makes them simple enough to keep PCs playable.
7. I would think #7 would compete with #3, wouldn't it? In any event, it's an easy to learn system, but still detailed enough for PCs to be distinct.
8 & 9: No danger of EITHER one of those.
10: The stat blocks and combat system are simple enough to allow these.
11: Noooo problem.
12: while Monsters do use the same system, you can't play a monster - only a dwarf, elf, halfling, or human. It fails this test.
14: classless, though careers are like templates for advancement. you have to pick careers (and you change them over time) but it's not like a class or levelling - the template defines how far you can advance in a given related set of skills, 1 point or 5% at a time.
Ahhh, TDE, the prime simulationist RPG. However, no monster play in 3e.
That reminds me, my copy of Drakensang (TDE PC game) contains a basic PnP rulebook.
Still, I don't linke the default world (too low fantasy from my (limited) experience). I have to rewrite that.
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