WotC So, when do the announce the July book? Guesses on what it'll be? 🤔

[TheSword]

Which is one reason to move away from alignments. Strangely, some people prefer having Always Evil races. I wonder how the Venn diagram of "Wants Always Evil Races" and "Is OK With Including Sex Slavery" would look.

That comment is really beneath you. It’s really distasteful to go for the player rather than the ball.

You’re choosing to do a deep dive into the origin of the Mul presumably because the sex slavery element is the bit you found interesting. The majority of people I’m sure just wanted to play a rock hard, half dwarf gladiator like Rikus, and didn’t give the messy birth a second thought. The author referenced the main Mul characters origin in the book as a tragedy in a very minor way and then went on to be a rounded character.

Ignore the fact that the second Mul character (the only other major one) was the product of a loving relationship between two gladiators presumably escaped your notice. The authors made the story they wanted to make. It sounds like can only obsess about the worst possible outcome and focus on that.

You’ve chosen to keep repeating Sex Slavery because I guess you feel it makes a sufficiently powerful statement. Trust me, it does nothing to convince people that don’t already agree with you of anything.

The idea of the eugenics attempts of scientists/sorcerers is nothing new. It plays into the idea of the sorcerer kings as evil, genocidal, maniacs toying with the life they consider beneath them. The writers wanted evil antagonists. We know forcing people to have sex is also evil.

I find it fascinating that you choose Sex Slavery as the thing to care about, rather than the fact that each sorcerer king perpetrated a hollocaust - successfully in several cases - against entire races. The Sorcerer kings are Menglar, von Braun, and Goebbles wrapped up into one leader, replicated across a half dozen city states.

But sure. Focus on the bit you find interesting and take it out of context. Then compare people who like the rest of the Dark Sun setting to another set of people who you’ve also taken out of context.

 

[tetrasodium]

That comment is really beneath you. It’s really distasteful to go for the player rather than the ball.

You’re choosing to do a deep dive into the origin of the Mul presumably because the sex slavery element is the bit you found interesting. The majority of people I’m sure just wanted to play a rock hard, half dwarf gladiator like Rikus, and didn’t give the messy birth a second thought. The author referenced the main Mul characters origin in the book as a tragedy in a very minor way and then went on to be a rounded character.

Ignore the fact that the second Mul character (the only other major one) was the product of a loving relationship between two gladiators presumably escaped your notice. The authors made the story they wanted to make. It sounds like can only obsess about the worst possible outcome and focus on that.

You’ve chosen to keep repeating Sex Slavery because I guess you feel it makes a sufficiently powerful statement. Trust me, it does nothing to convince people that don’t already agree with you of anything.

The idea of the eugenics attempts of scientists/sorcerers is nothing new. It plays into the idea of the sorcerer kings as evil, genocidal, maniacs toying with the life they consider beneath them.

I find it fascinating that you choose Sex Slavery as the thing to care about, rather than the fact that each sorcerer king perpetrated a hollocaust - successfully in several cases - against entire races. The Sorcerer kings are Menglar, von Braun, and Goebbles wrapped up into one leader, replicated across a half dozen city states.

But sure. Focus on the bit you find interesting and take it out of context. Then compare people who like the rest of the Dark Sun setting to another set of people who you’ve also taken out of context.

There are a lot of good points here. The fact that Darksun is a collection of people doing the least horrific assortment of things they can manage to do in order to survive long enough to avoid something worse is a central theme of he setting. Sure you can change the ratio & make X less horrific for these people here but who are you going to leave taking up the slack or are you just going to go down in history as the guy who destroyed what was left of civilization before it could recover?

I ran a 5e campaign in darksun or athas like world a while back & the central theme was how the dragonmarked houses were engaged in all of the stuff so far beyond the pale that it borders of war crimes & deeply unethical treatment of sweatshop employees look a bit questionable in a world where the legal protections of back home in eberron aren't a thing. Not only were they not a thing but the locals loved it because it made their little slice of hell better in ways they cared about. The players were working for the dragonmarked houses in that campaign & the people kept leaping one step further. Everyone had a lot of fun trying to balance everything without losing their souls metaphorically, but that couldn't have happened in even the worst most horriffic corners of eberron faerun or whatever

 

[Faolyn]

That comment is really beneath you. It’s really distasteful to go for the player rather than the ball.

Since I was talking about generic rather than specific individuals, I'm not sure how you got that, but OK...

You’re choosing to do a deep dive into the origin of the Mul presumably because the sex slavery element is the bit you found interesting.

If by "interesting," you mean "something that probably shouldn't be included in a 5e conversion of the setting," then yes.

The majority of people I’m sure just wanted to play a rock hard, half dwarf gladiator like Rikus, and didn’t give the messy birth a second thought. The author referenced the main Mul characters origin in the book as a tragedy in a very minor way and then went on to be a rounded character.

They almost certain didn't give it a single thought, or thought it would make for a tragic or edgy backstory. Does that mean that the rest of us shouldn't think about it?

Ignore the fact that the second Mul character (the only other major one) was the product of a loving relationship between two gladiators presumably escaped your notice. The authors made the story they wanted to make. It sounds like can only obsess about the worst possible outcome and focus on that.

Was that from a novel? Because I don't care about the novels. I care about the sourcebooks.

Also, the fact that one mul character was the product of a loving relationship doesn't change the fact that every other one is specifically bred by slavers and thus is the product of rape--quite possibly the rape of both parents, in fact, assuming the father was also forced into it.

You’ve chosen to keep repeating Sex Slavery because I guess you feel it makes a sufficiently powerful statement. Trust me, it does nothing to convince people that don’t already agree with you of anything.

Yeah, I suppose I should know better by now. Some people just want to think that not including sex slavery as part of the setting because the alternative is catering to people's "triggers".

The idea of the eugenics attempts of scientists/sorcerers is nothing new. It plays into the idea of the sorcerer kings as evil, genocidal, maniacs toying with the life they consider beneath them. The writers wanted evil antagonists. We know forcing people to have sex is also evil.

And? Does that mean that D&D has to include that as part of the in-worldbook canon? Are you saying that DMs aren't capable of making their evil antagonists evil without the books writing about it first?

And muls aren't being created by scientists and sorcerers as part of a master race. They're created by the guys who run gladiatorial games, and some of them are then sold into general slavery.

I find it fascinating that you choose Sex Slavery as the thing to care about, rather than the fact that each sorcerer king perpetrated a hollocaust - successfully in several cases - against entire races. The Sorcerer kings are Menglar, von Braun, and Goebbles wrapped up into one leader, replicated across a half dozen city states.

There's a big difference between a setting element and something that literally affects how a person makes their character.

You're also ignoring that my entire point is that muls should be turned into a fertile race so that don't all have to be escaped of freed slaves born from other slaves who'd been raped. This is my first post on the topic of muls if you don't believe me.

So: are you against muls being a fertile race? If you don't want them to be a fertile race, are you also against half-elves and half-orcs being infertile as well? I'm talking about both in Dark Sun and in general. Because I'm at least 90% sure that Athasian half-elves can reproduce.

So explain to me what's so fascinating about the fact that I said that one of the biggest problematic aspects of Dark Sun can be fixed simply by making muls fertile so they have more options than being the result of forced rape by slave breeders, but this solution has drawn so much ire? What's so fascinating about the fact that there are multiple people who are OK with including sex slavery but not ok with allowing a species to be fertile?

 

[teitan]

They do have the habit of separating sections to be purchased separately on d&d beyond.

I don’t like D&D Beyond. Also still a bad business model but they also do a new book once a year or so that tends to have that material published sans adventure or setting so yay. I just don’t think it should be default approach to put it in a book and think it’s incredibly jerky to suggest people buy a whole $50 book for a 2-30 page section.

 

[hopeless]

They have a sale on at the moment and I took the opportunity to pick up Ghosts of Saltmarsh and the rest of the Eberron Last War book I hadn't picked up yet.
Been looking at the Yawning Portal book not convinced into picking up the separate adventures from that.
Will probably pick up a physical copy of the Ghosts of Saltmarsh book at some point, but access to portions does help me decide, whether that's necessary.
Had the three core rule books and the two supplements already picking up the tasha book on d&d beyond is what persuaded me to pick up the physical copy.
I hope to be able to play again and not just online so it kept me interested.

 

[Maxperson]

Which is one reason to move away from alignments. Strangely, some people prefer having Always Evil races. I wonder how the Venn diagram of "Wants Always Evil Races" and "Is OK With Including Sex Slavery" would look.

Probably similar to what the Venn diagram of "doesn't want sex slavery" and "is okay with little kids shooting themselves in the head" would look. I mean, if you're going to mix random things that don't belong together, together...

 

[TheSword]

Since I was talking about generic rather than specific individuals, I'm not sure how you got that, but OK...


If by "interesting," you mean "something that probably shouldn't be included in a 5e conversion of the setting," then yes.


They almost certain didn't give it a single thought, or thought it would make for a tragic or edgy backstory. Does that mean that the rest of us shouldn't think about it?


Was that from a novel? Because I don't care about the novels. I care about the sourcebooks.

Also, the fact that one mul character was the product of a loving relationship doesn't change the fact that every other one is specifically bred by slavers and thus is the product of rape--quite possibly the rape of both parents, in fact, assuming the father was also forced into it.


Yeah, I suppose I should know better by now. Some people just want to think that not including sex slavery as part of the setting because the alternative is catering to people's "triggers".


And? Does that mean that D&D has to include that as part of the in-worldbook canon? Are you saying that DMs aren't capable of making their evil antagonists evil without the books writing about it first?

And muls aren't being created by scientists and sorcerers as part of a master race. They're created by the guys who run gladiatorial games, and some of them are then sold into general slavery.


There's a big difference between a setting element and something that literally affects how a person makes their character.

You're also ignoring that my entire point is that muls should be turned into a fertile race so that don't all have to be escaped of freed slaves born from other slaves who'd been raped. This is my first post on the topic of muls if you don't believe me.

So: are you against muls being a fertile race? If you don't want them to be a fertile race, are you also against half-elves and half-orcs being infertile as well? I'm talking about both in Dark Sun and in general. Because I'm at least 90% sure that Athasian half-elves can reproduce.

So explain to me what's so fascinating about the fact that I said that one of the biggest problematic aspects of Dark Sun can be fixed simply by making muls fertile so they have more options than being the result of forced rape by slave breeders, but this solution has drawn so much ire? What's so fascinating about the fact that there are multiple people who are OK with including sex slavery but not ok with allowing a species to be fertile?

Whether Muls can reproduce is so low down on the list of things I care about that’s it’s difficult to describe. I have already said the Muls are half dwarves and should just be described as such.

What I object to is your lumping two groups of people together both of which you took out of context. I guess its a form of arguing. You take a group who who aren’t offended by the fact that Dark Sun authors wrote that some pretty evil templars do some pretty evil things like breed slaves... then you say they’re pro-Sex Slavery.

Then you take people who don’t have a problem with evil races, for all the many reasons people feel that way and try and correlate those two.

Have you considered Faolyn that one option is to let people make their own minds up?

The reality is that the toxicity of the argument means it’s less likely that either version of the setting will be made.

 

[hopeless]

I guess evil campaigns are their thing.
I'd like to run an evil character in 5e one day, but I wouldn't glorify it like that!

 

[TheSword]

If by "interesting," you mean "something that probably shouldn't be included in a 5e conversion of the setting," then yes.


They almost certain didn't give it a single thought, or thought it would make for a tragic or edgy backstory. Does that mean that the rest of us shouldn't think about it?

Was that from a novel? Because I don't care about the novels. I care about the sourcebooks.

Also, the fact that one mul character was the product of a loving relationship doesn't change the fact that every other one is specifically bred by slavers and thus is the product of rape--quite possibly the rape of both parents, in fact, assuming the father was also forced into it.


Yeah, I suppose I should know better by now. Some people just want to think that not including sex slavery as part of the setting because the alternative is catering to people's "triggers".

And? Does that mean that D&D has to include that as part of the in-worldbook canon? Are you saying that DMs aren't capable of making their evil antagonists evil without the books writing about it first?

And muls aren't being created by scientists and sorcerers as part of a master race. They're created by the guys who run gladiatorial games, and some of them are then sold into general slavery.

The novels both informed and were informed-by the setting. The setting moved on with a major protagonist Mul being demonstrably created by a loving relationship. Rkard featured directly in at least one sourcebook. In the same way that Drizzt was demonstrable proof that not all drow are evil. Rkard is proof that not all Mul had tragic births.

Choose the story you want to tell. Ignore what you don’t.

I find your desire to split hairs to try and make something more controversial very odd.

 

[Bitbrain]

Changed my mind after reading the blog post thing over on the D&D website.

I think the next products are:
1). Feywild adventure based out of the Forgotten Realms.
2). Volo’s/Mordenkainen’s type book featuring dragons prominently.
3). Classic setting updated to 5e. I’m hoping for Dark Sun but not expecting it.