D&D 5E Solving the 5MWD

[TiwazTyrsfist]

Or, whether 'cool' or not, they just see using as many powers as they can as a simple way to make things less risky for their characters.

So, not power creep but pedal-to-the-metal power gallop: the party's at full blast before every encounter.

All this means is that the encounters then need to be made somewhat tougher on average, to account for this: just another lap in the arms race.

It also means the complete end of the longer-term-than-a-single-fight resource management and attrition aspects of the game.

It's only natural that players want to make things easier and-or less risky for their PCs, and as being at full power before each fight is a simple means of doing this, of course that's what they want.

But that doesn't automatically mean it should happen. It's the DM's (and to some extent the game design's) job to make things tougher on the PCs - in that regard the DM is in effect the opponent, and that aspect of the game is by nature adversarial whether you like it or not.

 

[Lanefan]

Cause, I've played plenty of D&D at cons where we didn't have a 5mwd. We kept rolling through 4,5,6 encounters without even a short rest. And as long as the players are OK with that, as long as we all agreed we were fine playing that way and knew that was the style of game we were going to play, it was fine.

That might just be because at cons there's always a serious real-world time crunch - a 4-hour slot just ain't enough time to do much of anything unless everything the least bit non-essential gets skipped; this includes a lot of in-character roleplay, a lot of 'fluff' scene detailing, magic item field-testing, and yes - resting.

So if the players are PLAYING All guns blazing, full rest between each encounter, it's because that's what they want? That's what they came to play?

At a con where you've only got 4 hours? Yes. At a home game where you've got an amount of time bounded in theory only by the real-world lifespans of the players and DM? Not so much.

Lan-"what's surprising is that in the 14 years I've been on here this is the first time someone has straight-out labelled me as an enemy"-efan

 

[Harzel]

"Combat as War," big-time.
Gygaxian Skilled Play.
Attrition-based de-facto-wargaming scenarios.
...um...er..caster supremacy? "Really D&D?"

I don't understand the inclusion of "Gygaxian Skilled Play" in this list. Skilled play is possible in any game that is not pure chance, so I guess you mean something more specific by "Gygaxian". (?)

Yep, it didn't eliminate the phenomenon, just the need to avoid the phenomenon.

Class balance issues are not the only reason for disliking 5MWD.

 

[Sadras]

What exactly is adding variation to your recovery rate doing?

Good question.

(1) No arbitrary short rest period of 1 hour.
(2) It places the recovery mechanism in the control of the PCs as opposed to the DM.
(3) The recovery system is tied to exhaustion which makes more sense to us.
(4) Each PC controls their own recovery rate, so not tied to the forced 1 hour group rest.
(5) Long distance travels generally creates longer periods between Long Rests making recovery riskier (the DC increases the further it is since your previous Long Rest) making overland travel inherently riskier as it should be.
(6) System works well for all adventuring locales (dungeon, overland & city).
(7) Random Encounters mechanic can still be used to urge pacing but now it doesn't delay recovery (before RE could interrupt 1 hour rest time).

 

[Sadras]

The "SoLuTiOn" that I keep seeing in this thread is "Hur hur, how I make Playerz not get rest, how I make battle into SLOG, how I prevent power use and refresh and kill teh PCs?"

100% agree! That is why changing the rest periods is not a real solution IMO.
The system we use is to put the recovery system into the hands of the PCs instead of the DM, as it currently is and always has been.

 

[Sadras]

Changing up the recovery rate always to some constant value tied specifically to infiction events always leads to mechanics that can't handle some fictional pacing - which inevitably means changing your world to accommodate the mechaincs. That's one of the biggest things I want to avoid!

We're on the same page here.

You could try would be variable recovery rates but that seems like a much worse solution than the one I'm suggesting. It ties resting to fictional events and then fails to make those events consistent. UGH! That's worse IMO than tying recovery to no in fiction event at all.

I'm not tying recovery to fictional events but it IS variable.
The PC controls when he'd like to push and recover - if he does he/she AUTO recovers but risks getting exhausted. The DC is dependent on how many days since the PCs last Long Rest (24 hrs) AND the number of times he/she has already recovered on that same day. The PC is in full control of his/her own recovery - not tied to anyone else's and certainly not dependent on the DM's x hours uninterrupted rubbish.

 

[clearstream]

I mean, I don't think it's MEANT to be punishing the players, but IMO it is, in that THEY want to play one way, and YOU the DM want to play a different way, and you are forcing your desired game style onto the others?

I think this antagonism or opposition between DM interests and player interests is not a good argument. Were it true that some group only wanted all-alpha-all-the-time, then yes, I would agree that for such a narrow-interest group there would be low value in mitigating the 5MWD. However, I don't buy into such narrow-interest groups being the majority. Instead I have found players open to new experiences. A great DM is doing things that surprise them, delivering them a play style they might not have anticipated or chosen for themselves.

My response to...

Like, if this is a common problem in your group you may need a different group?

Would be a defiant maybe you need to aspire to a higher standard as DM! When you do, they will appreciate the diversity you bring them. Fighting-talk, assuredly!

 

[clearstream]

Lan-"what's surprising is that in the 14 years I've been on here this is the first time someone has straight-out labelled me as an enemy"-efan

I've always thought of you as an enemy too, if that helps?

 

[Harzel]

I mean, I don't think it's MEANT to be punishing the players, but IMO it is, in that THEY want to play one way, and YOU the DM want to play a different way, and you are forcing your desired game style onto the others?

Like, if this is a common problem in your group you may need a different group?

I Freaking LOVE Agricola. I love fiddly micromanaging, I love complex scoring systems, I love digging deep for synergy between my options. But nobody else in my gaming group WANTS to play a 4-6 hour boardgame about Medieval Farming in France with Logarithmic Scoring.

Generally, they want to play Cards Against Humanity.

Now, CLEARLY, Agricola is a Deeper, Better, More PROFOUND game. So clearly they are wrong. I should force them to play Agricola. I will tell them we are playing Card Against Humanity, then set up Agricola and pass out Occupation and Minor Improvement cards.

This, SURELY, is a plan that won't backfire, or alienate my friends.

You seem to be going to some lengths to portray DMs who wish to limit 5MWD as imbued with poor motivations. Unless it just makes you feel superior or something, it's wasted effort since that's not what's going on here.

Cause, I've played plenty of D&D at cons where we didn't have a 5mwd. We kept rolling through 4,5,6 encounters without even a short rest. And as long as the players are OK with that, as long as we all agreed we were fine playing that way and knew that was the style of game we were going to play, it was fine.

So if the players are PLAYING All guns blazing, full rest between each encounter, it's because that's what they want? That's what they came to play?

That's one possibility. Another is that they see it as maximizing their characters' chances of success within the rules they are playing under and given the fictional situation. IMX, that latter motivation is more common than dedication to a particular play style. YMMV.

 

[Sadras]

Lan-"what's surprising is that in the 14 years I've been on here this is the first time someone has straight-out labelled me as an enemy"-efan

It took 14 years? Those bastards!